Some impartial advice (I've had a foot in most the discussed camps to some extent).

F18 (including Hobie tiger etc)

At 230lbs your crew will need to be 130 lbs or below if you want to be competitive outside of local club level. This boat offers everything you've said you're after including an increasing long distance scene.

F16. Would be ideal for you single handed and a main could be built to your weight. If you want to sail 2 up (at the highest level) you'll need a crew below about 90 lbs

A Cat. The highest developed of the bunch, you can order off the shelf a boat to suit you. I believe there is a US design that suits the bigger boned sailor. Someone will chip in with the model, its slipped my mind. Once you've chosen a platform then pick a sail maker and they'll work with you to develop a mast/sail combo to suit your weight and selected boat.

To my knowlege (from the other side of the world) there is however very little distance sailing done on As or F16s except at a local club level.

If your main priority is the distance stuff then the N20 may be the go, however, they are currently/about to go through a rule shake up with a new mast and the F18s appear to be starting to match them number wise at the distance races (T500 etc). So if this option is attractive probably wait a while to see what comes out in the wash.

Good luck

C'mon guys, I know you love your F16's but the guy is 6'4 and 230lbs! The F16 route would leave him single handing only. F18 or N20 can get you to the distance races comfortably. Go with a Tiger and you have a little less leeway with crew weight. The Nacra Infusion is a little better with more weight. At your weight, I would highly recommend the N20 although the more competetive crowd is heading to the F18. That's not to say the N20 fleet is any sort of a pushover. There's still plenty of very competetive sailors in it. With your weight, you wont be dissapointed at all with the N20.

um, ya/no much better. i lived in Dundas, when i went to Mac, deGroot hall. good times. where you sailin'?

Scarecrow
thanks by opening up some realities, exactly what i am looking for. you give me much to consider. N20 with diminishing numbers may give me better results, and enough exposure to make a transition in a few years, or on the flatter line of my learning curve. this may well be the way to go.
if i can actually get the curve to flatten! i could transition into Acat's, or the F16 or what suits my ability and interest. hopefully not ending up in the "also ran" category.

Chums
I agree thanks. often the class that is just off the radar provides exactly what i need right now.

Ah... somebody with a fair bit of racing experience looking for a class that focuses on a certain niche.... very different then the casual guy looking for the right boat.

You obviously have some thoughts on the kind of racing that you want to get involved in. It sounds like you prefer the distance race format over buoys.

Your options for distance racing will be limited if you go with a single handed class. There is not that much interest among the single handed racers for those epic journey type races. Safety is an issue for both you and the organizing authority.

Almost all distance races are scored on handicap since fleet size is problematic. Some races that would be of interest and are close to you are:
Red Fox regatta in Michigan contact Cram
A Canadian Distance Race in Ontario, contact Pitchpole Dave
The New England 100 in Naragansat Bay, contact Rick Bliss
The Statue of Liberty Race at Sandy Hook Bay Catamaran Club.
The Storm Trysail Annapolis to Hampen, contact CRAC
The Annapolis to Oxford and the Race Back Contact CRAC
The Version 2.7 race Contact Fleet 32 in Va Beach
Ohio has a distance race of 20 miles at Put in Bay
The major Florida Distance Races, (SteepleChase, Miami to key Largo, Hogsbreath 100 and the River Race) The Macho man in Tampa plus a big distance races in the Panhandle/Fort Walton and a couple of shorter races on the east coast of Florida.
Of course the Tybee 500 and the Great Texas races are limited to two man teams...
Make sure you can play single handed in the events that interest you.

If you are interested in Line Honors/ first to finish... Consider the Marstrom 20... Only 2 boats in the US but it's the fastest boat we have here.

If you want distance races coupled with the chance for a large sub class... Get a Nacra 20. (and they are good for a couple of buoys race turnouts a year including NA's, Trade winds, Spring Fever and two events on the Chesapeake (not including the Wisconsin fleet),

If you want distance races coupled with a project to recruit the larger number of buoy's racers on F18's to the cause of doing distance races... go with an F18. Your crystal ball will be needed to forecast the fleet interest/growth in the next 3 years.

If you want a two man buoy racer you should pick the F18 It is a national class with large fleets in Canada and upstate New York and a growing fleet in New England.

If you want a strong single handed class, the A class is national compared to the F17 or F16 which are regional classes. A Michigan fleet is now up to 5-6 boats with a very strong fleet in Bristol RI. Get a hold of Steve Clark for advice, he is your size and has sailed and built several A class boats.

If you want a spin single hander, the F16 would allow your sailmaker to build sails to your weight but the class racing is spotty.. the F17 class would be a lot closer to you and they have a stronger class schedule in CRAM, Ohio and the Panhandle.

At 230 pounds... unless you have a strong 120 lb crew lined up with the same interest in going racing.... you are best off looking at one of the two 20's. I would look to get in a race on all of them if possible to narrow your choice.

Have fun!

Sail out of Burlington Sailing at LaSalle, racing twice a week with controlled access, mast up storage. It's also has very resonable rates

Fred

I'd second on the N-20 ,for your weight it's the one. I'm 190 and have problems finding crews that would be competitive on an F-18.I've sailed a N-20 for the last 8 years, just got an A cat also. The serious distance scene in the US is more dominated by N-20s. F-18s are registering for more distance races i.e. Tybee 500, but most of those guys will admit that the extra 2 feet makes a difference.F-18s(because it's a formula class) are being advanced and improved more than the N-20 (one design) though. There's 2 good and fast N-20s in the classifieds right now.
Todd
p.s. Welcome to the Dark Side.

dude, you are well versed in the world of cat sailing. thank you for the well thought out reply. i read your post and find myself putting together an itenary. I sincerly did not know there were so many events so close to home.
Line Honours is a lofty goal, and i appriciate the input, but will not risk showing up with a Porsche, and drive it like a VW (yet) I have learned that lesson for life.
Yes i am interested in the distance races, they seem a greater challange, phyical, mental, logistical, etc. and am sic to death of going 'round cans, ending where i started, too long attached to a big ugly hunk of lead i suppose.
The realities of double handed are sinking in, and i can live with that. I will look into this F17 business, as the events are a bit more local. then on to the N20.
these 500 mile races are interesting, but i think it wise to be honest 'bout the realities of life, health, family etc. but perhaps.
Very happy to have a direction so soon, thanks again
I will keep you posted

Hipps said, "I agree a spin. boat without a doubt, prefer no crew, I have dealt with crew for many years........"

If you go with the F18 or Inter 20, you can ONLY race WITH CREW.

I had an Inter 20, it's a great two up boat and I sailed mine solo but not racing. The racing rules require you to race it two up even in light air. Oh, and it weighs about 400lbs. compared to 230 for the F16.

If you have good, regular crew and want to race distance, especially in the ocean or the big lakes where big wind and big waves are a factor, the Inter 20 is the prefered ride, no doubt.

If you want to sail solo in big wind, or race solo, do triangles, or two up when it's really blowing, the F16 will be a good ride as well but will obviously not take the waves like a 20 footer. The F18 is a compromise between the two but must be raced two up per their rules, but can be sailed solo when not racing.

What we all really need is about 4-5 boats. An A cat, F16, F18, I20 and a 60' tri for those distance races!

congrats on the new boat! and thanks for the input, you seem one step ahead of me, encouraged by what you say tho, i am thinking along the same lines that you just did. N20 for a spell, and on to the next step. cool.
do you have 2 boats? or am i reading the post wrong? Did you look into the F17 class? I get it why you would get an A cat, just wonderin.
2 good N-20's in the classifieds? on this sight?

nice, i know that place. I can see it from work, across the bay. weekly race?

Timbo
ya i did say "prefer no crew" and i realize that the F-18 and the N-20, are 2 up. for sure. I take what you say 'bout the F-16 seriously tho, and yes i love big wind, big lakes, long distances, and the ocean. in Florida, my marina is only 2 miles from the Stuart inlet. I often go out to fish the flats off GBI, and know from experience (big wind and waves)that righting a 400# boat will be a real bitch. I realize too that orginized events and like minded people create opportunities to improve, and since i am new to this i will be looking for organized events that i can actually compete in. I have regular crew, but not good regular crew! (at least when it comes to cats, nor am i good yet).
What of the F-17? whatterya know bout them? if i need one plus one back up crew, it will still be much better than the 8 monkeys and 100 beers i tolerated on the Mumm! that was just for a wed night round the cans race. there is much to consider yet. I will want to go out for a sail on my own, just for the serenity of the mayham of it all, am i willing to give those opportunities up to have a boat i can race? not sure yet. but i do have a direction, and the F-17, and this N-20, albeit very different boats, seem a good starting point, and yes the F-16

A 230lbs person will NEVER be competitive in a class that has NO minimum crew weight rule. (F16)

For your weight, the only competitive options are really the N20 and F17 and I'm not even sure about the F17.

I'm 6'6" 235lbs and drive an N20.

What is the minimum crew weight in the F17, F18 and N20 classes?
For the F16, the minimum crew weight is defined in the rules as being able to right the boat (with a bag if neccesary me thinks). Not intending to start a rules discussion, but since you brought it up it would be nice to know how the other classes mentioned define min. crew weight. Lets not have personal antipathies sidetrack what is a pretty good thread.

About weight and racing. Unless one is aiming for the top-top level like the olympics, a little extra weight dont mean that much in F classes. In one designs where you can not adapt your sails, you are worse off. Anyway, like I have written serveral times before, weight is not all that important, it is just another excuse for not finishing off races as well as you think you deserve. Skill and time on the boat is far more important than weight when it comes to racing on local/national level. If one aims higher than that, loosing/gaining weight is part of the game.

Visiting local fleets, now that it has been established that there are some, sounds like excellent advice! Meet the sailors and check out the boats. Perhaps catch a ride or two on different boats, then think through what is most important. Being able to change configuration one/two up or go racing with high quality. Perhaps the answer is two boats

F17 will handle 230lbs+ just fine.

In single handlers, I guess, you have to decide if you want A-cat. A-cat is ultimate boat, if you once sailed it and liked it, there is no way you'd like anything else as much.

If you don't want price tag and extra care of A-cat then there is not much difference between F17 and F16.

F17 is big and powerful and heavy. F16 is subtle, powerful and light. Both are excellent boats, there is just little different twist; you get to choose what you like most.

I’d look at local scene and see if there is any local class racing.

I do strongly recommend having a ride on “big and heavy” boats prior to purchase.(N20, F18, F17) It may surprise you how much power you are getting with the boats. You may like it, or you may want something more subtle….

Anyway, welcome to the dark side….

Now those are such unsubstaniated statements as to be a load of old bol****s. In truth most middle age guys are pushing 200lbs particularly anyone around 6ft. 230lbs is not big on modern day standards, certainly I'm around that weight with wetsuit and harness etc and guess what I recently won a very light air race in a F16 fleet, mind you as soon as the wind gets up where I should do well I do badly. The F16's are a rare breed, they are designed to carry two smaller bodies but will sail equally well with 1 fattie, push up and down the beach on your own ( try that with a N20 or F18 )can be as docile as you want but as sporty as there handicap which is the same as a F18.

Its horses for courses fellow sailors, if you want long distance power sailing then the two handed boats are the only options, if you want to safely go sailing on your ownsome( and that means launching, recovery from a splash, and boat yard hnadling ) then that leaves the A's and F16's. Why not the F17 / FX1, they unfortunately can't really be easily righted from a capsize when there's little wind, by one person, certainly they are nice boats but they are a two hander in reality.

Have you looked at the F16 Viper, its a F16 on steroids and should handle the extra weight well. Best of luck but you may have to think along the lines of owning two boats to acheive your goals.

Well indeed the (modern hullshaped) F16's tops out in doublehanded mode at 160 kg max (350 lbs), F18's only go a little higher in the crew weight range (maybe 175 kg) but not by much. Of course for recreational sailing both boats carry close 200 kg and sail well.

Still the 2007 F16 global challenge champion has very comparable specs, so for 1-up sailing the F16 would actually be a rather good fit. I used to be 203 lbs myself and I have yet to complain about power.

But I agree with Chums here, if you are looking for competitive 2-up sailing at your weight of 230 lbs then the biggest boat you can get will be the best, meaning I-20. That is unless you'll be sailing with a son of nephew below 18 years of age or indeed a very small wife/girlfriend.

So the decision will be largely inspired but type of sailing you will decide to do the most. 1-up or 2-up (in a competitive sense)

Personally I underscore the desire for a spinnaker fitted boat. If you are prepared to travel up the initial learning curve then spi sailing on a cat is heaps of fun ! Even on light winded days.

Wouter

Ask the F16 2007 global champion about this !

He is about the same length and weight as "Brokenships"; he did use a mainsail that was optimized for his weight and sailing style by Landenberger as the F16 class rules allow; a great equalizing ability of the F16 class rules.

And yes it was a big wind regatta that year (>20 knots winds) with short steep waves and the F16 fleet was combined doublehanded and singlehanded sailing. Against all predictions (by not F16 sailing people) ; a singlehanded F16 skipper won this event. He came close to repeating this feature in 2008.

Just to be clear about this aspect. Reality has shown different results than what some (entrenched) believes dictate.

Additionally, a singlehanded sailor will indeed NEVER be competitive in a doublehanded class that doesn't allow singlehanded use of the boat (I-20, F18). He will simply get protested out in any serious event. Same for a 1-up boat used in a 2-up manner (F17, A-cat). With respect to not having minimum weights I think the F17, A's and F16 are practically the same. The latter two not having any minimum crew weight regulations and the first only having a switch over weight from where onward you may use a larger spinnaker. Having a minimum weight on a modern singelhander like the F17, A's and F16's is pretty silly really; there is simply not that much performance difference between different skipper weights and the dependency over the range of weights is like a flat dome. The latter meaning that being to0 light is the same as being too heavy, you'll loose some performance to the mid range guys. Therefor the concept is fully selfregulating and no need for a minimum weight rule is encountered. Due to the ability to have you own optimized sails this range appears to be very wide in both the A-class and F16 class; think roughtly 60 to 100 kg (130-220 lbs). The spinnaker adding additional performance equalizing by shifting the downwind legs performance more to skills then ideal specs.

I think the other suggestions are all good (I-20, F18, F17, F16, A's) and brokenships will have an excellent boat in all of them. The right choice however being dictated by his expected use, local conditions and local fleets. Where the F16's main argument is the versatility (both 1-up and 2-up sailing are officially regulated and sanctioned) and ease of use and handling without sacrifizing any performance compared to the F18, F17 and A's. F17's having bigger and better fleets up north and the F18 being the best choice for 2-up racing, A's being the preferred choice for very competive 1-up fleets in USA and the I-20 being the preferred 2-up boat for his weight and for real distance racing.

A challenging choice when looking to find all desires met in one single boat !

Wouter

waynemarlow- is "bollocks" a considered a swear word?

230 lbs, no crew- I'd say you're too big for an A-cat. That leaves you with the F17 and the FXone. Probably better off with the F17 as they allow a big boy chute. Both of which can be righted with a bag easily by me at 160lbs, at 230lbs you should be able to right either one quite easily.