I give- you win.

sidetracked? ya a bit, but i have rather enjoyed it. and am learning alot. good to know this is a passionate bunch. I can only hope to cause such a stir on the race course! your offer is very generous, will PM you with/for details when i get south, and we will get this party started!
yes it is winter, and i am w-o sailboat, first time since 1977!! and admit my leadmine "friends" piss me off at times, as do/did i them.
F-17 may be the best compromise at this point tho. (phat guy sails, singlehand) will need to do much training, need experience!! few hundred laps of Hutchison Island this winter is in order
-P-

When I made the transition from racing lead mines to cats, the most helpful book I found was Rick White's Catamaran Sailing for the 90's. It is still available through this web site at the online store, click top right here. There is a separate chapter on several different boats, and a separate chapter on spinnakers by one of the best, Randy Smythe. While you wait to find your new toy, I would recomend you get ahold of that book and read it thoroughly, twice.

The rules are the same as mono's, the physics are the same, but the apparent wind thing going downwind is going to blow your mind. The book will help you understand what is different and how to prepare for it. Do not get discouraged when the others leave you in their wakes, just bring them a beer after the racing is over and they will tell you how it's done. When you get to Florida come to some of the local regattas and look at the cats, talk to the sailors. That is the best way to shop.

timbo
good stuff, will read. i have learned a bit of the "apparent wind thing" on the ice, have hacked 'round on the ice in my youth, nothing serious but i remember it getting so far ahead i flipped the damn boat couple times (lose it trun wrong way if i remember). good times! much to learn for sure tho, thats another reason i need to do this oneup, to get out and practice

For the F17 you should go and see Mr BOB CURRY ... another excellent sailor ... I believe he lives in the Florida Panhandle near Pensacola/Fort Walton Beach/Panama City area. I'm sure that Tikki or some of the other sailors from Florida can provide you w/ information on how to contact Bob. I've only met him twice years ago when he was racing P19's ... he was working at Sabor(?) Sails at the time as a sail designer/maker ... I do still have my good ol' P19(MX), Bob has since sold his P19 awhile ago...

Guys, isn't Bob the current F17 Champion????

Sail Flat, Sail Fast, Sail Safe
HarryMurphey
H18mag/#9458, Fleet54/Div11
P19MX w/Spin, CRAC-Open Class
TripleThreat 43'Tri/Race crew

Best answer here is to just give it a try and see for yourself.

The second best answer is that in the F16 class we also mix 1-up and 2-up crews in the same racing fleet as the more boats there are on the starting line is more fun for everybody ! The scoring can be seperate but more often we have simply made only one final score listing of the mixed fleet.

Interestingly enough the mode of sailing (singlehanded or doublehanded) does not appear to hold any predictive value for the final result in the mix fleet racing. Even several of us ourselved didn't expect this situation at the beginning of the F16 class but over time we have found ample real life evidence that there is as good as no difference in "round-the-course" performance between a well sailed 2-up F16 and a well sailed 1-up F16. The weight difference can not get more pronounced then between a 150 kg 2-up crew and a 75 kg 1-up crew.

In the past with mixed spinnakerless designs the downwind leg was the downfall of the heavier crews. But with the spinnaker usage the onus has been seriously moved back towards sailing skill and away from an ideal crewweight.



Those numbers are of course truthful, but real racing has shown that these ratio's are not as important for overall performance as we may believe. That was the lesson that was learned. Apparently the real performance limit is found somewhere else. Lightweight is important in getting up to speed comparable to teh F18/F16 level but going beyond that speed requires solutions in a different area. Much like the sound barrier limited all early jet planes to subsonic speeds no matter how large their engine power were. I believe the limits faced by modern fast cat designs are energitic in basis such like angle of attack efficiencies but also the fact that to accelerate a given mass to a higher speed ever larger amounts of power are needed. And mass itself is a factor in all equations where often it is devided out by itself. Sort of like the fact that a heavy person falls just as quickly of a building as a lightweight asian female ! I believe it is these dependencies that keep F16's around the same performance over a rather larger range of crew weights.

But please don't take my word for it, just give it a try yourself and make your own comparisons. Just promise me that you'll give it a try and don't let anybody tell you that these are boats for midgets.

Regards,

Wouter

Wouter
thanks for the input and i will for sure try the F-16 and your observations re. results and ideal weight are duley noted. Goes back to my personal ratios, that sailing is 80% people(skill) 15% equiptment, and 5% opportunity(luck)

been a while since i threw one of those out a window! but ya, i understand that my size will limit me much less than initally precieved. and encouraged that the performance limits are more dynamic (input,skill and experiance) than just weight (displacement)
intersting size note, my family came to Canada in the '50's form ijsselstein, so as usual the dutch are to blame for my shortcomings! Thanks for the input

I would summ up thus, but I must declare that in the past I have owned the following

Dart 18
Hurricane 5.9 - 20 foot big 2 up cat with a kite
Inter 17 (slightly slower version oif the N17)
F16 (Current boat).

If you want to sail 2 up ONLY; get the biggest boat you can find; I assume US based so a Nacra 20 is the boat for you

If you mainly want to sail single handed, but want to sail 2 up sometimes (or visa versa) and want flexability of design, sail cut and setup, and don't mid doing some fiddling yourself once you learn to sail the boat soyou can have things where YOU want them; get an F16 of some sort and spec the sails "for the larget person" and so you get max power


If you want to sail only single handed then you really have 3 choices

1, F16 again (with the option to have sails cut for you
2, A class, again you have sails cut for you,l but NO Spi
3, F17, This boat is a one design boat, and you should be able to pull it around and right it with your weight.



I'm fairly light (70ish) kg and found I could not cart the Inter 17 around, or get it back most times from capsize, but you should have no problems with this.


If you have a fleet of one type close; it might be a good place to start.


My view, buy an F16 as you have the most options and a Spi!

Or maybe your tallcomings.
When we had our motel in Key Largo, we had several Dutch people stay with us, and it seemed like all of them were very tall. One of them told me that the Dutch had to grow tall so they could see over the dikes.

why? are the lesbians taller in the Netherlands?

Dykes or dikes, careful of the spelling please

One other thing that may influence the debate is the size of the local fleet. There is 1 f16 blade racing in Ontario and a couple taipans not racing, but there are 5-6 F17 racing next year in southern Ontario

Hi Mr Hips,

As I layed in bed last night I was revueing what boats and dealers we have recommended for you to contact/try ...

Robbie Daniels/"Fun in the Sun", Tampa Florida: F18 (Capricorn), F16 (Viper), A-Cat
Bob Curry/"????",Panhandle Florida: F17 (Nacra), I/N20

and let me add ...

Rob Jerry/"Boat Works Ltd", E Syracuse NY: F18 (Hobie "Tiger")

This should cover a large percentage of the boats that have been mentioned in the posts ....

Now I know Bob Curry races A-Cats ... I just do not know if he sells them also ... personally I have had no business dealings w/ Bob but he is an excellent sailor (both times I was on the same race course he just flat out buried me)

You know my recommendations of Robbie and Jill ...

I have only had small business dealings for parts w/ Rob Jerry (at regattas sites) but "Boat Works" has always been very helpful so I could repair my boat and make the next start. Several of my close friends have purchased boats from/through him and to a man they all speak very highly of Rob and Boat Works.

Now the guys have had an excellent recomendation about going to Florida and attending some of the upcoming events ... so lets look out a few more months ahead and suggest attending Nigel Pitt's event in Georgia which is usually around Easter ... this is an excellent event. Trey and the I/20 Class can clue you in on this event. Also there is the Hobie MidWinters East (March27-29th) in Panama City, Florida. Now, Rob Jerry has several used Tigers in stock and a large group of competitors usually come down from upstate NY ... maybe you can arrange w/ Rob to sail a Hobie Tiger at that event. There is a Hobie dealer in Panama City come to think of it, Brad/Sunjammers, who is running the event.

This should give you a nice cross section of "Beach Cat Multi's" to check out and try.

But don't forget to check out which boat has the most organized class and buoy racing schedule (closed course)... the Hobies are the most organized currently ... next is the A-Cat Class w/ local and National One-Design events ... the F18's are third in organizing w/ again a schedule w/local and national events ... that leaves the F16 Class who have some pockets of local racing, that are trying hard to develope a national class and are very close to achieving "critical mass" towards that goal (there are 5 here on the Chesapeake but they have yet to all together attend a regatta and have their own One-design start ... hopefully maybe this year).

For the distance races (open course) the choice is currently the I20 ... there are some other designs like the Nacra 6.0NA, Mystere 6.0, P19 but they do not have any organization and usually sail in "Handicap/Portsmouth classes" in both open and closed course races

HarryMurphey

Brokenhips,

Given that a little over a year ago, I was in a similar situation; I thought I might go through how I arrived at my decision in buying a new boat. Sorry for the long post but I thought it might help.

My background is Hobie sailing with an 80/20 sailing mix of recreational to racing. Like you, I am in the 230 lb range. I sail mainly in Michigan with a mix of flat water inland lake sailing and Lake Michigan sailing.

My primary decision criteria included: single handed sailing, but the option to sail with crew, sail plan versatility (especially want to learn to fly a spinnaker), boat speed, boat weight (I don’t want to horse a 300+ lb boat around), and racing options.

My sources of information included any articles or boat reviews I could find on the web, multiple forums, manufacturers specs, regatta pictures & results, Portsmouth ratings and a factory visit.

Here are the single handed boats I looked at seriously.

Hobie 17 – I started here given my history. Lots of cheap used boats available, spinnaker option, some Midwest racing. I ruled it out due to weight (320 lbs) and after I looked around, I decided I wanted a modern hull design.

Hobie FX-One – this is the boat that started me down the modern hull design, performance cat track. Very cool looking boat that met nearly all of my decision criteria. Boat weight (326 lbs), limited availability and limited racing in the Midwest ruled it out.

A-Cat – introduced me to the box rule concept which I think is great. This is the boat I would have if I were a pure racer. Lots of good used boats available, light weight (165 lbs), some racing in the Midwest. Single handed only and lack of spinnaker sailing were the key factors.

F17 – met all my criteria except weight (343 lbs) and versatility as it is sailed single handed. Very strong racing in the Midwest. This boat would have been more of a contender if I were more of a racer.

F16 Blade – met all my criteria. Could be sailed single handed or with crew, lightweight (230 lbs), fast, and has a spinnaker. I also liked the looks of the boat more than any of the others I considered. The only negatives were limited used boat market, and Midwest racing. I could only find one or two boats in any Midwest Regatta.

I was also intrigued by the Blade home build concept. I contacted Phill, one of the designers, but it was too many hours given my schedule (200+). He encouraged me to contact Matt McDonald at Vectorworks. I did and Matt answered a lot of questions about the Blade via e-mail. Coincidentally, I had a business trip in Florida last November, so, I visited the factory in Titusville. Matt spent a considerable amount of time with me, not only showing the boat and answering more questions, but also showed me the hull manufacturing process.

What sealed the deal was Matt had a used boat that he had reconditioned and offered the same warranty as the new boats. While I wanted to do more research, especially sailing multiple boats, I felt that I should jump on the used boat. I was pretty certain at this point and they seemed to go very fast when they hit the market.

I would encourage you if you have the time to talk to the people mentioned above and sail the boats.

I have a table that compares all the boats on each factor including Portsmouth, but it gets garbled in the post. I would be happy to e-mail it to you.

Hope this helps.

Another point to consider is local dealer support. Its a long drive to Florida to get something fixed.

True and I have to admit, I have some concern about this with a lighter boat. Also, a correction to my post. F17 can be sailed with jib and 2 up.

How important is local dealer support? What do you typically expect of support from a local dealer and what do you expect from somebody on a different part of the country? Interesting parameter to know more about as I have never had any dealer support except for buying parts by phone/email/web

Slight correction, F17 is 300lbs, not 343lbs, but still heavier than an A or F16. Once you get on the water though that doesn't matter.

Regarding hull design, there are pros and cons to any design. I notice on my Infusion that in chop and light wind it slaps the water and the older designs (Tiger) are better in light air with chop. But in heavy air downwind the Infusion smokes. Also the Blades don't have enough freeboard for 2 people. Probably ok with 1 person.

Also, The A-cat can be raced very well with a spinnaker if you are so inclined. Clive Mayo comes to mind - he's a big guy and he does quite well in Portsmouth racing with the 'chute.

Disagree about the freeboard on Blades - I've raced on the boat double-handed and it did fine. My skipper wasn't 200 lbs, but we were over 300 on the boat. In the breeze, that thing is damn fast.

Dealer support is actually more important than I initially thought.

When I had my "meltdown" at tradewinds last year, I was blessed to be able to have Krantz 10 minutes down the road to be able to put together quotes for me for insurance purposes.

Also, to be able to just drive 15 minutes to pickup a new set of brand new rigging is a really huge bonus.