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f-25c vs f-28r #16673
02/25/03 03:44 AM
02/25/03 03:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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australia
hi all
i have been wondering what is the difference in speed and performace betwen the f-25c and f-28r.
one would think the 25c would be alot faster with its power to waight to leanth ratio.
and do they still build the 25c (even on a special order)

any surgestions would be great

regards..kurt

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Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16674
02/25/03 11:46 AM
02/25/03 11:46 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Hello Kurt-

Yes, the F25c can be built [F82R kit] but not as the original 48 were in Colorado. In that process the hulls were laid up and cooked in an oven specifically made for that purpose. To cook out the carbon and layup at 140F. I saw a photograph of three normal sized guys carrying around a hull. Here the nose to swim platorm is one piece not like down under where they were two seperate pieces. The deck mold was one piece as well from the pics I saw from one of the "original eight builders" scrapbook. My boat weighs about 1700lbs all up according to Bill Adams the builder. I bought the builder's father's boat which had been sailed 5 times or less. All specs/info were verified by the builder.

This is basically a daysailor because there's very little room in the cabin. I removed the stove and sink because I couldn't get the sails inside the cabin.

As far as speed realized; there is a material difference between the two boats. At the 2001 & 2002 Nationals the only boats faster than the F25c were the F31Rs. If you check the Overall results you will see the uncorrected times. AN F24 won on corrected basis. I was on a F28R [2002]when an F25c blew by us with absolute ease. That's why I bought one!

As far as draw backs; the only complaint I really have is trying to dock singlehanded to an end tie on the local lake. Its at the end of a powerboat pier and is about 7 ft deep but when the lake goes down the daggerboard has to come up. Without the daggerboard all the way down side/cross winds tend to have an affect and you can slide sideways pretty easily. I never had a close call with the dock but used the beach both times I sailed then boat. Luckily I have a beach at the marina I can get close to and walk to shore and drop an anchor very similar to FWB. Its grass and protected by high ground. The only other problem is that ti really needs three crew total to sail the boat.

As far as replacement costs the NAMS Survey says the boat alone withou mast would be anbout $100k USD. There are two for sale in the world. Both are on Windcrafts site.

thommerrill
F25c 009 Charisma
ARC22 2234
FMS SC20 57


Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16675
02/26/03 12:38 AM
02/26/03 12:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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taipan029  Offline OP
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australia
hi, thom-
i currentaly own one of the 5 f-28Rs in australia and the fastest its called Scud ,i also find docking a bit of a problem in side winds ,i have it keeped out side my house on a boat ramp.
also how do the 25c handel in a blow 20nts and up,i have herd the can be a bit of a handfull is that true???
and wat sorta top speed are u looking at with a f-25c
do u have any idear wat sorta conditon those to 25c are in i have seen them on th web site.

thanx for the help

regards..kurt
f-28r
aus 006

taipan 4.9
aus 029


Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16676
02/26/03 08:27 AM
02/26/03 08:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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You asked: do u have any idear wat sorta conditon those to 25c are in i have seen them on th web site?

Thom probably knows better, but maybe it will help to know that Chris Sudberg's boat is for sale because he is buying another model, so it should be in very good condition.

Rgrds,


Luiz
Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16677
02/26/03 09:03 AM
02/26/03 09:03 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Hello Kurt-

There are several stories posted on the net about the F25c and I read all of them before I bought mine. I can say that each ama/float has 4000lbs of bouyancy. That translates into almost no chance of pitchpoling. With the large daggerboard you can throw it into a corner very quickly and come out with little fuss. I have seen from the foredeck of an F31R two seperate F25cs [Lyman White in 2001 Nationals and Matt Scharl in 2002 Nationals] do this manuver. Both were coming into heavy traffic [20-25 Fboats] on starboard tacks. They both jybed into holes in traffic and rounded marks pulling away from the competition. Very quick boats!! Actually saw Scharl do this same manuver to cross the finish line only this time after jybing they popped the chute to pull ahead of three F31Rs with chutes up to cross the finish line pulling away. If you enjoy sailing a boat correctly with fast tacks [less than five seconds in some cases] the F25c gives you that chance. Its not heavy so it can be thrown around a little in heavy seas but it something to become accustomed to not be concerned about. Any catsailor would consider all Fboats to luxury liners. If you sail like a catsailor you will be much safer than a sled sailor. Catsailors know when to release/adjust the sails.

Alot of how an Fboat handles is how they are sailed. Being able to recognize when to lower a jib can make a material difference with how the boat handles in heavy air. Ian said "the F25c could handle 40ft waves but would destroy itself going onto the trailer". Bill Adams told me that.

As far as condition I can speak for the one in Texas because its my boat. Its had seven sails because the original owner had a stroke after 3-5 sails and the boat sat in western Colorado until last June. I only sailed it twice because of unreliable crew and water level problems in the summer. The purple hulled F25c with yellow floats and deck is in the SF Bay area and has been sailed actively since 1996. I can't say about the purple boats condition. I am selling mine because I just want a bigger boat but if the new F33 is going to be over two years away I will pull my add and sail the 25c. Ian is supposed to have prices, delivery dates, options and available kits priced soon.

Also the FCA site has a constant chat about whats going on in the Fboat USA world. Theres a Europen F Boat site listed as well on the f-boat site of Ian's.

Hope this helps,

thom

if you want to look at some2001 Nationals pics I took from the foredeck of an F31R try the link below:

http://home.att.net/~t.r.merrill/wsb/html/view.cgi-home.html-.html

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: Luiz] #16678
02/26/03 09:07 AM
02/26/03 09:07 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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thom  Offline
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Hello Luiz-

When are you going to get your boat?? I bet you are about to come unglued waiting. I waited about nine months on my ARC22 but this Catri 27 must have you going nuts...

thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16679
02/26/03 01:43 PM
02/26/03 01:43 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Hi Thom

You are right, waiting is a pain - but I knew it would not be easy from the begining.

On the other hand, the good news is that the delay is the only bad news...

When I visited the shipyard in January and saw the construction, I preferred not to complain. It was clear that they were doing a very good job and that the delay was caused mainly by their comitment to execute everything exactly as specified.

Don't be fooled by the conventional appearance of the boat and the choice of conventional glass/foam for the hull- its engineering is very sophisticated - very frequently brilliant.

It suffices to say that at least 5 of the features of the Catri are now shared with the F-33 - but not with previous models.

Cheers,


Luiz
Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16680
02/26/03 03:30 PM
02/26/03 03:30 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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taipan029  Offline OP
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australia
thom ,the price for the aus f-33 is close to $150 000-$ 200 000 there in aus $$ im not shore if there correct but they will be pritty close

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16681
02/26/03 05:41 PM
02/26/03 05:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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thom  Offline
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Dallas, Texas
Kurt-

Todays $1.00 USD is worth $1.65 AUD approx. AUD are up lately since I bought a ASM spin from Gordon at GM Sails. Excellent quality spin I must say as well as excellent price.

Thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: Luiz] #16682
02/26/03 05:50 PM
02/26/03 05:50 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Thats right Luiz, the F33 is far more advance than Corsiars of the past. Ian adopted many of the construction techinques of the F25c as well as other designs into the new boat. What I couldn't believe was the weight of the cruising model with an inboard diesel.

thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16683
02/27/03 02:55 AM
02/27/03 02:55 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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thom-
do u think it would be a good move from my f-28r to the 25c if i dont mind the the lose of acomedaton (thats y ure seling urs right)or any thing and got the cash and fantastic crew,i just love the wait of the 25c 700kg or so mine waighs over 1.6 tons(1600kg)thats almost a ton less
do u think it is posible to put a boom on a 25c

thanx for ure help

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16684
02/27/03 08:13 AM
02/27/03 08:13 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Thom

I think Mr. Farrier's strategy is the best alternative to leave Corsair miles behind.

His new designs (33, 22 and the ones to come) represent a "new generation" of folding boats that differ in more then hits the eye from the previous one.

You already noticed that - weight is down significantly.

Since the old models are also suitable for amateur building, their specifications and construction techniques are not ideal to achieve minimal weight, so Corsair is left with heavy "old" designs that will gradually become less atractive to the F-Boaters.

This means that there is plenty of room to make the new models with tighter specifications, built with more sophisticated techniques, resulting in lighter and better boats.

Obviously, home construction will not be possible due to the inherent uncertainty regarding the builder's proficiency generating a need to increase safety factors and keep away from some construction techniques.

However, kits will be a suitable replacement for amateur building, retaining the high quality and structural light weight of the production boat, but still allowing a certain degree of customization. Kits will enables a fast start and a slow finish, according to the availability of money.

The 33 and 22 do not compete directly with Corsair's products, but after their production lines are firmly established in weaker currency countries (= better price), I would expect Mr. Farrier to launch at least one boat in the middle of Corsair's range, also better and lighter then the existing models. This will be the "coup de grace".

Meanwhile, the Catri 27 is the best high tech boat in the middle of the range. Frankly, from the technical point of view it is hard to compete with. But the market buys other features too, so technical excelence alone is not a guaranty of better sales.

Cheers,


Luiz
Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16685
02/27/03 10:54 AM
02/27/03 10:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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thom  Offline
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Dallas, Texas
Kurt-

There are a few F25Cs around with loose footed booms. Heaton and Spaulding arre both working out boom rigs as we speak or the last time I spoke with them. Which means that the info for materials and mounting procedures will be readiny available. Its also in the Farrier Plan Books. They have a slightly shorter main but this enables lazy jacks to be used much better than the lazy jacks with a boomless rig.

The major plus for the F28/Rs, in my opinion, is the rating and the working deck space. Also here the F28Rs are a "One design" and race in NOODs across the country.

WHat I don't like about the F25c is the handicap [-15 here] and the fact that carbon is more difficult to fix. It doesn't shatter like fiberglass but if you get T-boned you can't call Corsair for an ama...

If you're seriously interested contact Don Wigston @ Windcraft at the link below. The boat is in Dallas, Texas which is near DFW International Airport.

http://www.corsairtri.com/

thom

Last edited by thom; 02/27/03 01:07 PM.
Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: Luiz] #16686
02/27/03 11:01 AM
02/27/03 11:01 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Hello Luiz-

I agree with what you have said. Ian should be cracking up with the results of the F33. Just wait until the F22 gets completed and the orders roll in. The Catri needs to step up production and get out there and compete and WIN some races. Talk about low weight...

thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16687
02/27/03 03:10 PM
02/27/03 03:10 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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taipan029  Offline OP
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australia
thom
we dont realy go by 1 design down here in australia,all the other f-28rs have much bigger sails than me and i still beat them

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16688
02/27/03 05:37 PM
02/27/03 05:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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too much wind for oversized sails???

Also if you can get inside an F82R check out the head room...

thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16689
03/02/03 04:16 AM
03/02/03 04:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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australia
i sailed along side a f-82r today with my 28r
boy does she have exeleration even with a idiot on the helm who didnt know a thing about sailing and only just got the boat

cheers...kurt

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16690
03/02/03 02:38 PM
03/02/03 02:38 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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Hello Kurt-

Yea, watching that design [F82R/F25c] go by can be both frustrating and exhilarating depending on what you feeling. In the 2001 Nationals we saw one blow by us on an F31R AFt cabin and I needed a Tylenol for the neck ache I got trying to take a pic. Do you know the weight of the F82R?? Did he have GM Sails?? Gordon @ GM Sails is coming up for the 2003 Nationals to show off the spin I bought from him. Its as good as I've seen both cut and construction. He made the sails for Afterburner the big cat from New Zealand and they are awesome...

fair winds,
thom

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: thom] #16691
03/02/03 03:39 PM
03/02/03 03:39 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 51
australia
taipan029 Offline OP
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taipan029  Offline OP
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australia
thom
the bloke on the 82r said it weighted just under a tone(1000kg) he didnt have gm sails he had north sails ,the other f-28rs have g.m spinnakers ,i tryed one of them out and i didnt realy like the shape i found they were too full,
i like north sails beast

good sailing
kurt

Re: f-25c vs f-28r [Re: taipan029] #16692
03/02/03 04:00 PM
03/02/03 04:00 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 351
Dallas, Texas
thom Offline
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I think alot depends on what kind of air you're sailing in. If its really blowing a flater spin on these boats is probably best.

I found some info from Multihulls Mag about the F25c: concerning weight:

Displacement

Dry 1180lbs/535.3kgs
Sailing 1490lbs/ 675.9kg

According to Multihulls Magazine who probably never weigh one of the boats themselves but the F25c is apparently lighter than that F82R.

thom


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