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Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: Timbo] #173305
03/30/09 08:29 PM
03/30/09 08:29 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Timbo
So when the boat is up on the foils, it doesn't go upwind very well? I was wondering about how well it could point if most of the boat is out of the water, and most of the boards/rudders too. Not much left in the water to keep it from side-slipping. Now that leads to the next issue, if a foiling cat were to be developed, would it need a new type of race course? Instead of upwind, downwind, maybe reach back and forth over a longer course?


I'm sure Dave can correct me if I'm wrong, but the difficulty with foiling up wind is an available power issue. As the boat gets faster, the apparent wind comes more forward. As the apparent wind comes forward, less power is available. Except in the case of the uber-efficient moth (with very low windage and extreme lightness) most cats and tri's are going to exhibit a pretty high aero drag profile and find it difficult to take full advantage of foils completely around the race course.


Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: dacarls] #173306
03/30/09 08:35 PM
03/30/09 08:35 PM

S
Scarecrow
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Scarecrow
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S



Originally Posted by dacarls

But to hold down a lee hull by putting downforce on the rudder? Insanity!


And yet this is what existing cats are doing with T foil rudders.

Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: CaptainKirt] #173315
03/30/09 10:28 PM
03/30/09 10:28 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by CaptainKirt
One thing one must always remember is there is always a price to pay for any "benefit"- ie a particular setup that may be blazingly fast in 10-15 may be unsailable over that and slower in lighter air- this is apparently proving to be the case with the A's.


Some benefits are worth the price. Foiled Moths win championships.


Luiz
Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: ] #173316
03/30/09 10:39 PM
03/30/09 10:39 PM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by Scarecrow
Originally Posted by dacarls

But to hold down a lee hull by putting downforce on the rudder? Insanity!


And yet this is what existing cats are doing with T foil rudders.


Right, but only because they are not using positive lift foils forward. As you already pointed, negative lift rudder foils make more sense then pumping water ballast into the hull: same displacement with less mass. It does increase stability.

The big tris alternate between using their rudder foils to keep the bow up or to help lift the central hull out of the water, according to the conditions. I am sure that at least Hydroptere and Geant can do both things.


Luiz
Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: Luiz] #173783
04/03/09 12:24 PM
04/03/09 12:24 PM
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Posts: 1,307
Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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...and this cat too - take a look:

[Linked Image]


Luiz
Re: Interesting paper on the foiling moth [Re: Luiz] #173929
04/05/09 11:35 PM
04/05/09 11:35 PM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 805
Gainesville, FL 32607 USA
dacarls Offline
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The point was that foiling Moth and SYZ have a lifting foil in front, and do not overload the rudder flaps with a terrible load, or try to exert too much control, causing "dive brakes". Another problem not obvious is that the sailing foiler going to weather may run through a puff of wind and lose effective lift, coming off the foils: This is a real nuisance. Foilers need steady trade winds.


Dacarls:
A-class USA 196, USA 21, H18, H16
"Nothing that's any good works by itself. You got to make the damn thing work"- Thomas Edison
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