Guys,

I'm looking for some input on a basic rules question.

Scenerio:

You have two boats both on the same tack .... one heading downwind the other is headed upwind .... let's say both are on port ... and they are crossing. Now there is "constant bearing" between the boats which means they are on a collision course. Now the Upwind boat must keep clear of the downwind boat, simple. Here's the question; as the boats get closer at what point is too close and the downwind boat is allowed to take action to avoid the collision and protest the upwind boat who has taken no action to avoid the collision. Does the downwind boat (the right away boat) get to make the decision to avoid the collision and take action (based on their sailing skills)at the last moment and protest the upwind boat .... Or does only the upwind boat (the burden boat)get to make the decision of if and when to take action to avoid the collision? Does the downwind boat have to take no action, hold their course and allow the (obvious to them)collision to happen, in order to win the protest?

Basically ... how close is too close and who gets to determine that distance

Harry Murphey

Harry,

quote "Now the Upwind boat must keep clear of the downwind boat, simple." Not so simple, The windward boat shall keep clear, meaning the downwind boat (the windward boat) on the same tack must keep clear of the boat sailing upwind.

There is no distance given as conditions and speed will influence any decision you make. If the right of way boat alters course to avoid a collision which he must do, the other boat will have trouble convincing a protest committee that avoiding action was not required.

Hope this helps

Mark

I like to be more precise in discussing these kind of scenarios...generally the rules are written using the term "Leewward boat" to indicate the boat that is "downwind" from the other "Windward boat". Saying "downwind" boat can be misleading since a boat can be sailing to windward and still be downwind of another boat. And a boat sailing downwind can be upwind of another.

In the described scenario...the windward boat is sailing downwind (or off-wind) on port. The leeward boat is sailing to weather (or upwind or close hauled). Windward must keep clear. But, both boats have the obligation to avoid collisions. If windward fails to take action to prevent leeward from having to avoid her, then windward has fouled leeward and should take a penalty or be protested. It is a good idea (though not required by the rules in this scenario) to hail the give way boat well beforehand when she can still take avoiding action. Leeward will need to avoid the collision...with her recourse to protest...which will hopefully convince windward to make their penalty turn(s) according to the sailing instructions. Otherwise, filing the protest with the R/C will be required. In a protest hearing, leeward will need to show she waited until a point where there was no safe choice other than to avoid windward to prevent the collision. This can be difficult in some top fleets to prove...so knowing the wind speed, boat speeds, at what point(s) you hailed, closure rates, distance (in boat lengths) when evasive action was taken will all bolster your case. The onus should be on the giveway boat to prove she did not foul you.

Let's call the windward boat "W" and the leeward boat "L". Rule 11 requires W to keep clear of L. Rule 16.1 requires L to give W room to keep clear if she changes course. Rule 14 requires both boats to avoid contact if reasonably possible.

If L changes course while the boats are still far apart - that is, while W is keeping clear, that is not "avoiding action" and W does not break a rule.

If L takes no avoiding action and there is contact, then W breaks rules 11 and 14. L breaks rule 14. If there is no damage nor injury, then L is not penalized, but she still breaks the rule.

Note that Rule 14 says that L "need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear". L can wait until W is no longer capable of keeping clear before acting. If, at this point, it is no longer reasonably possible for L to avoid contact, she does not break rule 14 (see ISAF case 87).

In practice, L should wait until she needs to act to avoid contact, and then do so. To distinguish between the situations of acting too soon, and acting when necessary, it helps to present hard evidence to a protest committee. Wind speed, boat speed, and distance between boats are numbers that help protest committees make their decision. Since it is notoriously difficult to estimate distances correctly, it often helps to count seconds instead. If you can say "L was making 4 knots upwind; W was making 8 knots downwind, I altered course by 20 degrees and we passed 2 seconds later one half boatlength apart", then that's good information that a PC can use.

Regards,
Eric

Except for RRS 18.2(d), the rules do not place any onus on either boat. It is up to the protest committee to find the facts. Protest committees will often be more sympathetic to testimony from the protestor, but there is no burden of proof on the protestee. In the event of conflicting testimony, PC will often side with whomever had a better view of the incident. PC is much more likely to accept tangible data (knots, degrees, seconds) than vague statements ("too close").

Regards,
Eric

You guys beat me to it. Always use the language from the rules (windward, leeward, etc.). "Upwind" does not appear in the RRS for this situation (look at the definition of "Leeward and Windward").

As for the question at hand, this exact question (slightly different scenario) of when to chicken out came up at a North U seminar a few weeks ago. Brad Dellenbaugh was the instructor. Search the web for his qualifications, but I'll take his word for it any day over anyone here (no offense to anyone here).

Basically, he said that the leeward boat gets to make the determination, and the time/distance is not always the same.

The example that he gave was this. In a tight fleet of top-notch sailors, you can get closer without issue, because everyone has a good sense of what the other guy is capable of, and is likely to do (assuming eye contact, etc.). In a fleet with more inexperienced sailors, the newbies may panic a bit sooner and say they needed to avoid collision. The PC will usually agree with the ROW boat (within reason).

Hope this helps.

Mike

I'll give you some more data

1) the wind speed was approximently 8 knots

2) the windward (W) boat was a A-cat moving downwind at approximently 8 knots

3) the leeward (L) boat was a TheMightyHobie18 closehauled/single trapped moving at 5-6 knots

4) (L) attempted to hail (W) twice w/ no responce from (W).

5) At the point that (L) calculated that they were with-in 4seconds of a collision with (W)looking straight ahead laying out flat ignoring all hails (L) headed up sharply (approximently 40degrees), luffing their jib and slowing significantly, coming almost head to wind but still had approximently 1knot of boatspeed ... (W) at this point passed across (L)'s bows at approximently 10'... (L) was then able to "foot off" and start to re-accerlerate (of course the crew was "teabagged")
6) (W) never looked back ... or did a penalty circle ...

In (L)'s opiniun they felt that they had waited to the last reasonable moment to take evasive action .... (W) obviously thought they would clear.

So how close is too close and who gets to determine that ... (L) who is an experienced sailer w/ a 13yr old as crew or (W) who is a experienced sailor also but very aggresive.

Harry

Thanks Mike,

I thought that (L) got to determine what was too close (their comfort level) with-in reason ....

Thanks
Harry

Oh, Did I win that last raffle harness for Megan ????? Or do I still have time to get my MOJO out and give it an extra rub/shake or two and secret chant????? Should I incluse the secret dance also????

Assuming those were the facts found; W gets binned.

All,

This is a standard cross... the windward boat is going to bear off and cross on leeward's rudders and clear it with inches to spare. From windward's point of view...he will see the cross as a near collision almost every time. Windward could plan to jibe or bear off hard.... or he could screw up and nail leeward. As Mike reported... you sort of have some trust in the fleet on the course.

So... what is a good cat protocol to negotiate the cross in a new to you fleet of pricey boats. ...

Do you hail well in advance... or do you hail when you decide the collision is pending and windward better alter course in a second or two. I understand that there is no requirement for windward to acknowledge any communication nor me to hail.

My practice is as the leeward boat to Hail ROW and start counting when the cross is going critical. I am very happy to hear windward hail "hold your course" but there is no requirement for that. After that it gets dicey. Because the rule says you don't have to alter course to avoid contact until the windward boat is clearly not keeping clear and this is very hard to determine. I think the protocol is that you have to sail on as the ROW boat and swallow hard even if you don't hear from windward....

If windward screwed up and you collide and you could do nothing you are not penalized... but have to clean up the mess and are more then pissed.

In fact... I think that if you bail out early and windward has started his bear off to duck your transoms and turns into leewards bailout it's much worse. (I remember that was a tradewinds situation this year where boats went boom)

So... what's a good cross protocol.

How do you decide the Protest with these witnesses saying this. (leeward)... I knew he was going to hit me... I hailed early and he did nothing. It still looked like a collision to me as it played out. He did not alter course and I knew he could not bear off and duck my sterns so I rounded up .. not quite head to wind and he crossed in front of me.. Question. HOW FAR in Front... OH... I don't know ...Within a boat Lenght... maybee with 10 feet to spare... the wind was 8 knots. Question... how long did it take for him to cross you... Answer... Oh aI don't know ...I guess about two seconds. I just have experience and I knew he could not alter course to avoid a collision so I took action to protect my kid on the boat and avoid a collision.

Windward... I had it covered, He hailed very early and in this amount of air, I was going to bear off hard within a boat length if need be and take his transoms... At worst I can jibe within a half a boat lenght in the event that I miss judged. I thought I could cross in front of him. He hit the bailout button too early. No I did not return his hail with a hold your course... I am not required to do that. I did not do a turn.

Is there enough factual information presented here to throw windward out? Did leeward provide enough evidence to ding windward. What else would you need to hear fact wise? What can a witness add to clear up the facts. Oh... I saw the cross... from 25 yards away on the same jibe as windward ... I saw X Y and Z. I saw leeward bail and windward cross a few seconds later with 10 feet to a boatlength to spare. Leeward was not happy.

Do you let the witness offer an opinion on the cross... (I thought windward would safely duck leewards transom. I thought leeward bailed to early, I thought that leeward bailed to save both their butts.)

The only rules that require hailing are 20 and 61.1. Nevertheless, it is almost always a good idea to hail when boats approach (and by that, I mean well in advance of meeting). When both skippers know that the other is aware of their proximity, and what each other intends to do, there is much less panic. Boat crossings are not a good time to take someone by surprise. I believe that's true no matter what the design or price of the boats.

Regards,
Eric

Yes, hailing early and responding with "hold your course" is the best way to handle these scenarios...though not required. It lets both boats know that the other is aware and will do what is required. By not hailing, you don't know if one boat is even aware of the other's existence. By not responding with a reply hail, one boat remains in the dark as to whether they've even been seen. This is common human courtesy. Remember, there is the letter of the law and the intent of the law...intent being to make sailing safer...which MUST be on all competitor's minds.

It's not a problem doing tight passes until you get a big puff at the wrong moment. Last weekend two of our best club sailors on A's had they're normal tight tussle until a big puff put one A nearly right through the others hull, writing off the hull. I say give heaps of room at club level and sort it out in the bar.
regards