Jake,
I think the NE spin rigs have lengthened the wires from the hull to the foil. This allows the pole to ride higher. This would also allow them to rake futher back. I guess they do this for the spin, doesn't seem like it would help upwind except in heavy air. I am new to the 6.0 so I am still learning the boat. See you at Spring Fever, hope we get some more 6.0s.

I did look at the cables connecting the bridle foil and they didn't appear to be any longer than mine (my boat was not stored near theirs so I couldn't compare directly). Who knows? Not me (yet).

In my first speed comparison with this boat and several others at RTI last year, we had our rig standing pretty straight up (like I would with my 5.2) and we were able to pass a few heavily raked 6.0's with authority upwind in a moderate (not quite yet trapped) breeze. Downwind we were terrible but it's more attributable to our infamiliarity with flying a spinnaker (and the fact that most of the spin flying was at night). At Tradewinds, we still had the rig pretty vertical and we could not even begin to point with any of the other 6.0s in that heavy air.

The New England guys are running longer bridles when thay are runnning spinnakers. The mast rake helps with the lee helm and gets the snuffer up higher.

Mast Rake, is actually independent of shroud length, especially when you have custom(local) made shrouds.

IF, two boats all have the same shrouds, fasteners, chainplates, etc. then, and only then, can you compare holes on a chainplate as apples to apples. Even then they may differ!

I"m not going to go into how mast rake is measured, but it is discussed in centimeters, or inches of rake, not holes on someones chainplate.

One of my shrouds is longer than the other, on purpose. I removed one of the quickrelease shroud tensioners on one side, and when rigging, or de-rigging, I just take the quickpin out of the quickrelease and it loosens the rig. Obviously, the shorter shrould is on the quick-release side, giving me a centered mast.

I often chuckle, when I see some people rig, and to loosen their forestay, they loosen BOTH shrouds up some. Loosen one, in turns slacks the entire three point set up.

I don't use the quick-pins, for ANY of my standing rigging! If the one comes out of the quick-release, it's still held by the other pins.

Wow, what a tangent of of the original thread, sorry.

I don't think there's any doubt about how to properly measure mast rake...but on the beach, in between days of the regatta, I'm not to keen on grabbing a trap handle on a competitor's boat with a measuring tape in hand! However, when 10 of 12 class boats all have their shrouds in the last hole and I can't get close, it makes me wonder what rigging on my boat is different.

Are you talking about making your forestay loose for de-rigging or for tuning? Obviously if you loosen one shroud and not the other, your mast will be leaning (ever so slightly) to the shorter side which would be fine for de-rigging the boat but not so much for sailng. Assuming the shrouds are the same length.

Yeah- boy, how did we get here on this thread?

Dave,

I had some pointing problems as well for a while. My boat will point with just about any cat now ( and mine is an EX ). In lighter air you do want the mast a bit more forward. No more than 12" of rake. Unless you run a large spin. Then you will want some more to counteract the awesome lee helm you will encounter. I had custom shrouds made so I can dial in as much as 22" to 24" of rake ( for the heavy air and sailing in the ocean ). I have measured my rake with the beams leveled and dropping the halyard to the middle of the tramp with the tape placed below the foot of the mast. After years of measuring I can just eye it now. If you want to point with a furling system, rig tension is everything! I get my rig really tight. Almost no play in the stays ( but enough to allow 90 degrees mast rotation ). I have a system where I can tighten the jib luff independent of the shrouds with the furler attached (HUGE JIB). The stock NA boats have this too but with no furler.

If you can get the mast a little more forward, dial in some decent rig tension, get the jib luff tight and put some good downhaul on the main you will be pointing with the best. After finally tweaking mine last year I was amazed at how high I could point. It was like getting a new boat.

Hope this helps. It always seems hard to find help on these topics. Forgive me if I am mentioning things you already know! But when you know, You know... And when you dont.... Well, your probably 10 or more boat lengths behind.....

AJ
Nacra 6.0 EX w/spin

Thanks!
How long are your custom shrouds?

Can you post a pic or explain how you got the jib downhaul working with a furler?

Also, what furler are you using?
Thanks very much!
Dave

I snapped some pics of Rick Bliss rudders to see where he re-drilled them.
http://westlakesailingclub.com/tradewinds2003/rickbliss1.jpg
http://westlakesailingclub.com/tradewinds2003/rickbliss2.jpg
http://westlakesailingclub.com/tradewinds2003/rickbliss3.jpg
I was under the impression that he was using stock shrouds, but it doesn't sound like it, so pic 3 will be useless.
Dave

I'm in the process of installing a furler (Harken 436). Did you say you are able to adjust your jib luff tension with a furler while under sail? I would be very interested to know how you did that.

Giving you shroud length wont do any good. I have moved my hounds for more leverage while on the wire and my mast is an 6.0 orig. (Non NA) mast. The diamonds have been moved as well. Mast rake measurement is your best bet and even it is'nt as critical as some of the other things I mentioned. I used to have a measurement from the top of the mast to the rear beam. I'll see if I can dig it up. If not I'll check it again when I head out next week.

My furler is a Harken High Load small boat furler. I'll have to snap a pic of the downhaul. That would be impossible to explain! It is a roller clam cleat attached the jib halyard. Then a small sheave mounted to the base of the furler. Very simple but very effetive. I kept snapping the halyard whenever I applied tension to the luff in heavy air (HUGE JIB). With this simple system it is bullet proof now.

Also, if you are having trouble pointing. Check your rudders with the beach wheels on and bows in the sand (rudders down). Be sure they are straight. I discovered last year, I had one that was kicked out to one side (bent). Not sure how this happened.... Probably in the surf... But I replaced it and whewww.... Huge difference. Needless to say, I keep a lot closer watch on all the wet stuff now too. Including the measurements to within 1/16".

AJ

Ok thanks. Can you explain to me how really tight rig tension helps pointing?
Thanks,
Dave

Can you adjust your jib luff tension while under way (i.e. from the boat in the water?) - or do you have to do it from dry land?

For one thing it helps keep the forestay, and therefore luff of your jib, from sagging away from the wind and possibly producing an inefficient sail shape.

Dave,

If you are using a furler, chances are you will not be able to adjust your luff out on the water. If your rig is not tight you will likely see a nice bow in the forestay. This is what will hurt some of your ability to point... among other things... (a tight, flat main etc...).

If you are not using a furler you will not have to rig as tight since you can have the ability to adjust the jib luff from the tramp. Even then if the rig is too loose you will still have the bow in the forestay regardless of how tight you pull on the luff downhaul (this is in moderate to heavy air of course). Have someone snap some pics of your boat from the front while you are sailing and you will see this.

A lot of guys I know have pins and or quick release on the side stays so they can loosen them for heading downwind over some distance.

I always set my rig according to conditions and pretty much leave it alone until the race is over. Unless conditions change drastically. Then I will tighten or loosen accordingly. Remember. There are quite a few things that are different on an EX. Some do not apply to stock NA's.

AJ
Nacra 6.0 EX w/spin

Jake,

Yes I can adjust the luff tension on the water. I have to go out on the bow to do it (or the crew). It is very easy. I'll snap some digital pics when I take it out next week. I have already made provisions for a system that we can adjust from the tramp. Just have to hook it up. I'll send some photos when I have it working. (My boat has spent most of its life being a Guinea Pig from what I hear) Will be after the Mug Race. I should have it on for the 1/2 RTI and the RTI this year. I did'nt do those races last year do to a broken spin pole half way through the season.

AJ
Nacra 6.0 EX w/spin

Here is a pic of the Express with the pole off. Light air rake. I'll get some furler pics next week on the beach.

AJ

see you at the Mug and RTI!

Dave,

Good pics of the rudders. This boat is done identical to mine. This setup is great for launching into surf!! If you look close you can see the piece of PVC pressed into the rudder. Very nice.

AJ