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Stealths Grant Piggot sails #180759
06/03/09 10:05 AM
06/03/09 10:05 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 41
Geneva, Switzerland
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johnfullerton Offline OP
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johnfullerton  Offline OP
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Geneva, Switzerland
Hi

I have the landenberger sails on my stealth, I believe they are more for single handle use(lighter weight).

Are Grant Piggot sails better suited for heavy weights.

I'm sailing with 135kg helm+crew in a low wind area.


bye




Sarah and John
Stealth 551
RS400 871
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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: johnfullerton] #180765
06/03/09 10:49 AM
06/03/09 10:49 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Hi John
I weigh around 75kgs and have a MK2 Landy mainsail. After racing in moderate to strong winds and advice of John Pearce I took the decision in 2007 to have Grant Piggott re-cut the Luff to flatten the sail. Now the max curve of the Luff is 90-95mm. I feel I am more competitive in stronger winds but have to be really careful in the lighter stuff in regard to sail tuning. So I think the newer Landy mains are a great sail for the heavier single hander and two up crews. However, Grant's mains are obviously very similar in shape to the Landy with just a little less foot length and slightly longer leach.
I guess we have a slight difference of opinion but that could just be because of the difference between the MK1 and 2 Landy mainsails.
As for Grants sails being better for 2 ups & heavy weights I'm not aware of any 2 up teams using them at present.
P.S Grant made his first F16 Kite for me using the measurements I supplied and it's hot.

Last edited by Mark P; 06/03/09 10:50 AM.

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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Mark P] #180766
06/03/09 11:17 AM
06/03/09 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Mark P
Hi John
I weigh around 75kgs and have a MK2 Landy mainsail. After racing in moderate to strong winds and advice of John Pearce I took the decision in 2007 to have Grant Piggott re-cut the Luff to flatten the sail. Now the max curve of the Luff is 90-95mm. I feel I am more competitive in stronger winds but have to be really careful in the lighter stuff in regard to sail tuning. So I think the newer Landy mains are a great sail for the heavier single hander and two up crews. However, Grant's mains are obviously very similar in shape to the Landy with just a little less foot length and slightly longer leach.
I guess we have a slight difference of opinion but that could just be because of the difference between the MK1 and 2 Landy mainsails.
As for Grants sails being better for 2 ups & heavy weights I'm not aware of any 2 up teams using them at present.
P.S Grant made his first F16 Kite for me using the measurements I supplied and it's hot.


Grant and I designed the mainsail and the Kite was a collaboration of measuremnts supplied from Mark and taken from my Landy Spi which was designed for the dropped bow fitting (and thus longer pole) of the 2007 Stealth.

The brief for the Spi(I had no 2 after Mark) was to make a flatter sail that, as a result, would need to be driven harder to get results, but after experience with Inter 17 kites and having Grant make me 2, I was certain flat was faster - every kite Grant has made me has been flatter than the one before. As mark says, they are hot!

The mainsail was driven out of my belief that the landy sail was too full for the lighter sailor and that more area up top would be faster overall and easier to control in a blow.

We were aiming to build a flatter sail than the Mk2 Landy with more area in the head, as a result the foot would have to be shorter.

I've not sailed my Stealth 2 up yet, but hopefully will be in the next couple of weeks and will report back.

From sailing with both the Mk2 landy mainsail and GP single handed, I can report the GP is more powerful as there is more area up top AND is more controlable as you can twist off the head more easily than the Landy - however the sheet loads are higher with the GP sail. The GP has less luff curve than the landy sail.



F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: scooby_simon] #180861
06/04/09 04:28 AM
06/04/09 04:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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pepin  Offline
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Just got my new crispy shiny new GP spi. It was delivered five minutes ago...

First impressions:

* compared to my previous spi it is *light*. My previous spis (a Hobie 16 spi, and a Ullmann Stealth original) were heavier. This one is paper thin.

* Colorful. After a dark blue (Ullmann) and a white and light blue (Hobie) I chose a flashy red with yellow center...

Now I need to make a pole extension, as my pole is probably too short for this spi, and move the sheet blocks forward.

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: pepin] #180874
06/04/09 06:50 AM
06/04/09 06:50 AM
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Dam Pepin is going to show me the way downhill as well as uphill. cry

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: pepin] #180882
06/04/09 08:10 AM
06/04/09 08:10 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by pepin
Just got my new crispy shiny new GP spi. It was delivered five minutes ago...

First impressions:

* compared to my previous spi it is *light*. My previous spis (a Hobie 16 spi, and a Ullmann Stealth original) were heavier. This one is paper thin.

* Colorful. After a dark blue (Ullmann) and a white and light blue (Hobie) I chose a flashy red with yellow center...

Now I need to make a pole extension, as my pole is probably too short for this spi, and move the sheet blocks forward.


Eric, Give JP a call, he converted one boat at Mumbles (Wayne???) to have a longer pole. Did not take too Long IIRC.

Last edited by scooby_simon; 06/04/09 08:19 AM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: scooby_simon] #180884
06/04/09 08:20 AM
06/04/09 08:20 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
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Originally Posted by scooby_simon
Eric, Give JP a call, he converted one boat at Mumbles to have a longer pole.
I did. Two weeks ago. He send me an email today with pricing info.

Apparently he's got problems getting carbon tubes these days, but he's got enough off-cut in his workshop to build me an extension. New boats are probably going to have an aluminum pole...

Last edited by pepin; 06/04/09 08:20 AM.
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: pepin] #180895
06/04/09 08:59 AM
06/04/09 08:59 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Just a reminder!
Before you fly your new kite tip the boat over and use lots of Duck & Electrical tape around your spreaders and hounds, and check your fore stay and bridles etc for any sharp bits.
As you are probably aware there is almost nothing worse than putting unnecessary holes in sails.
PS. I'm positive your new kite will be money well spent although I hope you wont use it too often for Club racing.


MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Mark P] #180903
06/04/09 09:38 AM
06/04/09 09:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
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France
pepin Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark P
[...]use lots of Duck & Electrical tape around your spreaders and hounds
I think there is a whole roll of tape already on the boat smile

Originally Posted by Mark P
[...]I hope you wont use it too often for Club racing.
Considering that I do not have another kite (the Ullman exploded in a gust a couple of month ago, the well used Hobie is going back to the 5.2 where it belong) I'm going to use this new kite all the time...

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: pepin] #181038
06/05/09 01:54 AM
06/05/09 01:54 AM
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 41
Geneva, Switzerland
J
johnfullerton Offline OP
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Geneva, Switzerland
The view am getting is for the main.

MK1 Landy mainsail is highly efficient sail over most wind conditions which has to well control to get the best out of it.

GP
Have more up top so are easier/simpler to use in low wind.
Plus are more easier to dump wind in high wind.
Downside more sheet load, and most likely less efficient in mid strength winds.

Kite
GP prefer to be sail higher.



Sarah and John
Stealth 551
RS400 871
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: johnfullerton] #181039
06/05/09 02:10 AM
06/05/09 02:10 AM
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scooby_simon Offline
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Originally Posted by johnfullerton
The view am getting is for the main.

MK1 Landy mainsail is highly efficient sail over most wind conditions which has to well control to get the best out of it.

GP
Have more up top so are easier/simpler to use in low wind.
Plus are more easier to dump wind in high wind.
Downside more sheet load, and most likely less efficient in mid strength winds.

Kite
GP prefer to be sail higher.



I'd not quite agree with that.

Manisail

Landy mainsail is a good sail, but the GP IS Better all round. But, because the GP sail is flatter, you do have to be more accurate to get the best from it.

Kite

It does need to be driven harder, so you head up more to start with, but as the apparent wind builds, you sail deeper. When sailing against other Stealths with Landy kites, I sail the same (or deeper) angles, but I am sheeted in harder as the apparent wind as built more and thus I am going faster.

It's better all round!



You also need to remember that the GP sails are at least two evolutions ahead of the Landy sails now (I am not aware of any developments on the landy sails since 2007).

Last edited by scooby_simon; 06/05/09 02:16 AM.

F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

I also talk sport here
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: scooby_simon] #181047
06/05/09 05:22 AM
06/05/09 05:22 AM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

You also need to remember that the GP sails are at least two evolutions ahead of the Landy sails now (I am not aware of any developments on the landy sails since 2007).



With respect to the Stealth Carbon mast that is. As the development with regard to the Superwing alu mast is ongoing, because the EU Blades come with Landenberger sails.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Wouter] #181063
06/05/09 10:30 AM
06/05/09 10:30 AM
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Are there any changes in Landys F16 saildesign? I dont know.

Besides, what EU Blades are that. Who builds them?

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #181071
06/05/09 11:04 AM
06/05/09 11:04 AM
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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In regard to the Stealth's with a longer foot than the Blade which is approx 225mm shorter, I'm only aware of two versions, the original MK1 and improved MK2 with a bigger fat head. So the Blade Landy mains are a totally different animal which have a higher aspect ratio. I'm not positive but the two Landy Blade mains that I've seen do not look that similar. Hans's and Paul's leeches appear to be different shapes and Paul often sails with his original (Ullman?) main when single handing using his Landy only when 2 up.
So to answer your question Rolf, yes there are at least 4 differing types of Landy F16 mains available which I know of.
I'm affraid I still haven't got round to learning how to post pictures since this forum's upgrade but if you have a look at the 2007 F16 World Championships pictures on the Mumbles Yacht Club website (especially one of the line up shots from the rear) you'll notice that Hans's main is pretty much unique and if your very observant I'm pretty sure his yellow kite is also a Landy one off (MYC website 2008 gallery F16 Global Challenge). I'm not convinced it's a good kite! but I'm usually so far behind by the time I get to see it up I could be wrong [:-(]
http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/index.php?menu=photos

Last edited by Mark P; 06/05/09 11:19 AM.

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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #181077
06/05/09 11:44 AM
06/05/09 11:44 AM
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Rolf,

EU blades are typically VWM Blades that are imported and slightly modified by www.catamaranparts.nl Their standard suit of sails is Landenberger. But you'll also find Ullman's, Ashby's and Glaser suit of sails.

The Landenberger spi from 2006 was a good design. Light sheet loads and good depth without losing speed. It is not a reaching spi however.

Wouter



Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Wouter] #181080
06/05/09 12:09 PM
06/05/09 12:09 PM
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Personnally I'm very happy with the Landerberger mainsail. We have a great speed upwind. The jib however is a little to full to my opinion. We could sail higher with a different jib.

Downwind is a different story. The spinshape is quite full. You have to sail it deep for optimum performance. So deep there is not enough lift to get a hull our of the water and chances on pitchpoling are bigger. We I head up to get the hull out of the water our speed remains the same, but we cover more distance.

Any other views?

Gill


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Gilo] #181092
06/05/09 01:23 PM
06/05/09 01:23 PM
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I'd expect the Landy sails for the Blades to be very different to the L Stealth sails.

The Stealth has a tapered mast so needs a different luff shape where the taper kicks in.





F16 - GBR 553 - SOLD

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Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Gilo] #181097
06/05/09 01:42 PM
06/05/09 01:42 PM
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It is good to hear that Landy is doing active work on his F16 designs instead of resting on his laurels smile Getting Grant Piggot in on the scene in addition to the Glasers and others can only be good.

I have only sailed with a Landenberger spi once, after ripping our race spi. It was fast, but not as fast as the Gran Segel spi we ripped. We had to set it up differently and sail it a bit differently. It was pink, and Landy had written "sorry about the color" on the luff laugh laugh grin I digress.. All sails are different in my opinion and to get the most from them, you need to know the boat well enough to feel the difference and know when it is at target speed.

Mark,
so many pictures of people I have never met.. Hard to find the right pictures. If you have the links directly to the pics you referred to, it would be great if you could PM some of them. I'll do a tutorial on how to post pictures in response wink

Gilo,

I think I have asked about the age of your jib before? It is quite fresh, is it not? Do you have any photos of you sailing upwind taken from directly in front of you? I would like to see how the luff is with you sailing upwind.
We had a Tornado Landy jib once, and it was brilliant, so his F16 design should not be off the pace compared to other designs.
Same for your spi, how thight is the luff if you hoist it on land? Pics from in front while sailing?? How tight is the luff line set? When we set up the landy Tornado spi, we hoisted it with a loose luff line so we could twist a fist holding the luff about 45deg. Then we tensioned the luff line so we could twist a fist grabbing the luff about half that. This gave us a responsive luff with good speed and power. If your sail have too much draft, I would look at flattening the luff. Lots of fun tuning to do with spins, but sometimes the design is just slow. Hard to tell though without time and somebody to juggle ideas with. I better stop now before the thread is hijacked.

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #181126
06/05/09 04:59 PM
06/05/09 04:59 PM
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pepin Offline
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Actually I'm going to continue with my new spi (sorry for the thread hijack). I got it out of the bag and compared its luff length to my old Ullmann. The GP spi luff is longer, as expected, but not as much as I thought, 17cms to be exact. I *think* my hobie spi has a longer luff actually (can't know for sure, it's on the boat)

So I'm fairly sure that my 2.9m spi pole is long enough to accommodate this new spi. But all the new boats have a 3.5m long pole, right to the class limit. What's the dynamic advantage in pushing the tack point that much forward? Lowering the center of effort? Lifting the front more? Opening the gap with the main? Or is it just a matter of "mine is longer than yours!"?

Re: Stealths Grant Piggot sails [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #181131
06/05/09 05:27 PM
06/05/09 05:27 PM
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France
pepin Offline
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Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
I have only sailed with a Landenberger spi once[...] It was pink, and Landy had written "sorry about the color" on the luff laugh laugh grin
A lady at Datchet ordered a brand new Stealth and asked for a pink spi. It is quite a statement on the water!

And frankly, pink is nicer than the purple horror Wayne and Simon are sailing with smile

Originally Posted by Rolf_Nilsen
so many pictures of people I have never met.. Hard to find the right pictures. If you have the links directly to the pics you referred to[...]


I don't know them either, but Hans must be the NED 111 Blade with a yellow spi. Here are some pics of it. Here are some 2008 pics:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

And then some 2007:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

[img]http://www.mumblesyachtclub.co.uk/photos/2007_09_01_f16_worlds/webs/100_0701.jpg[/img]

(right click on them and select "view image" to see them at full size)

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