I never realized the 'T' changed to dagger boards.

Was that when it went to the new rig also?

New England Catamarans has a new Infusion listed at $19,250. My used 2007 Infusion is for sale at $13,000. I have not seen any other used Infusions listed.

Hey Pepin, care to sail accross a pond?

That particular boat is a "special" tornado. Not really class compliant with carbon daggerboards, no expense spared sails, monstruous gennaker, plus a spi. It was the demo boat for Sail Innovation SAS, a well known french sailmaker.

Looking at that "Gennaker" it does not loom like it would measure as a "spi" as it does not make the 75% rule.

what's it rate?

fast?

You're such a faker :P

Wasn't that a movie? Meet the Fakers? With Robert Dinero?

so what is the primary cost to build the 18 or 20 footers?

Design/mold creation?
Materials?
Labor?
Shipping & handling?

If labor is the key driver, is that cost lower with the resin infusion methodology? Can the labor be reduced in say, India or some other country?

The labor could be cut by moving the mfg within the same country. Some states are much more expensive to manufacture in, and we're not talking just about labor costs. Overhead...

I'm sure there's a study on which regions have the best labor prices..

You outsource to the lowest bidder (or country) then don't be surprised when it don't work right.

Sure you could save a bundle by having boats built in India or China, but any guesses as to quality control?

Ask Boeing about their All F'd Up 787 program. They are trying to build them out of carbon fiber, but have sourced all the componants out to the lowest bidders, all over the world to save money. Any surprise nothing fits or works right? And the plane is more than a year late for deliveries.

Today's first 787 test flight was postponed indefinately, and rumors are the new "light" carbon airplane is about 25,000lbs. over weight and the parts made in one country don't fit the parts made in another.

But Boeing -saved- a lot of money by outsourcing the work to other countries...and now they are losing sales to Airbus, who is having their own promblems.

So how much money did they really save vs. how much they are losing to cancelled orders?

They tried to go cheap and now things are AFU.

Who knew such a relationship existed?


OK, back to the original question (or the thread-creep question) How much "should" a 20' racing cat cost?

Here's how I look at it; how much cheaper is the F16 Viper vs. the F18 Capricorn? They are both built by the same builder, using many of the same parts, so how much more would it cost to stretch a Cap. to 20 feet? I'm thinking they could use most of the same parts again (same beams, daggers, rudders, slightly taller mast but of the same section, etc.) and the cost should be about the same difference as the Viper vs. Cap, only in the "More" direction, right?

If the F16 Viper is say, $2,000 less than the F18 Cap, than a F20 Cap should be about $2,000 more than the F18 Cap, right? (I have no idea if that is the actual price differential, just a shot in the dark, but you get the point I'm sure.)

Here's the real problem you will run into (as a builder) however:

How many customers are going to buy a new 20, vs. a cheaper 18 vs. an even cheaper 16?

Any "new" people are most likely going to go cheap, and get the 16, and maybe, some day, work their way up, or not. I think that's why Hobie sells more kayaks than all their sailboats put together, there are just too few customers for the more expensive 20 footers, vs. the smaller, cheaper boats.

Hey, here's an idea for Hobie (no charge Matt) How about you build a rotomolded kayak that can be connected to another identical rotomolded kayak, and turned into a sailing cat?!

I know about the Adventure Island trimaran kayak. My neighbor bought one and he loves it. In light air he "pedals" it through the tacks. But I was thinking more along the lines of a more powered up cat-kayak with more sail area, maybe a real tramp and a couple cross beams that could slide into the two hulls sort of like the Wave's beams do. Maybe put up some stays to hold the mast up, more of a conventional looking cat but you can take it apart to do the kayak thing if you need to.

The dealer who sold my neighbor the Adventure Island kayak said his number one sales are the new "Fishing Kayaks" for use on all those small Bass lakes that do not allow motors of any type down here in Central Florida. Put two of those together with a sail and look out! Kind of like that video of the two windsurfer boards joined into a cat.

Timbo,

Not sure you're looking at apples-apples there. A Boeing 787 is a BIT more complicated than a 20 foot multihull..

But if the tail fin doesn't fit the fuselage, then perhaps someone at quality control should be contacted.

HP, DELL, IBM, and other computer companies do what Boeing is trying. Whomever just bought Saturn is setting up this business plan as well. So there must be something to this strategy, but maybe not "scalable" to the complexities of giant flying thingies...

Why couldn't India, Italy, Hungary, Taiwan, or some other country manufacture components such as beams, hulls, rudders, etc? With the right quality control mechanisms in place I don't see why it wouldn't work, technically. As for cost savings, I think it's possible, too....

So, how do we improve quality control?

And I'd be happy if the price point for racing beachcats is around $1000 per waterline foot or less...

and just to state the obvious.... there are very few other ways to get into high performance racing (of any type) for anywheres near $20,000

Jay, Yeah, a 787 probably has a few more moving parts than an Inter 20, but my point was, you get what you pay for.

Matt is doing some A cat building for Bimare because labor rates (probably due to our weak-butt dollar) in the USA are cheaper than in Italy, but Matt could probably give us much more useful info on the subject of, "What a 20 foot racing cat should cost".

I heard he might be busy right now looking for his underpants or something...some sort of rum induced sillyness to blame.

I once asked somebody (might have been him) how much cheaper a 16 is than an 18 to build, and the answer was, "Not much, the only difference is 2 feet of glasswork, all the other stuff costs the same."

OK, so scale that up to a 20, should be the same logic, right? 2 more feet of glasswork and most of the other stuff is the same, just slightly more sail area. So, how much more than an 18 should a 20 cost?

And by that same logic a 100ft canting keel maxi should be double the cost of a 50 canting keel racer of the same standard...Anyone here know the cost of each of the above??

The reality is that there are a lot of factors involved in costing a boat for proper production (not just knocking out a couple of boats in the backyard).

essentially boats in the 16 - 18 ft range should be close in prod cost, a 20 will cost more as the loads are higher and the parts bill is larger due to the up sized parts required etc.

But I think there is demand for a well priced 20 that is modern and not too complex.

Macca...

The 64,000 dollar question... How wide should it be?

At 8'6... it seems too close the F18's. You just can't use the power of the bigger rig. Build it to the proper width and you have the trailer problems. (or.. is it just that we don't want to tilt trail a tornado or other wide boat ... it is just a lost art.)

Is there a killer boat weight, mast height, boat width for a 20 footer that just works?

Yes, as long as there is a "5-Guys Burger & Fries" store within 10 km of my house, there will be a need for a 20 foot multihull. And Lipitor.

Bigger cruising boat costs move up by the cube of the length at least, because of not only loads but what goes in it.

The cost of an added 2 feet of fiberglass is not much. A real design incorporates a lot more as macca aluded to here. You have the design costs, prototype development, tooling, documentation, and a bunch more to amortize over the cost of the boats you are trying to sell.

If somebody wants a 20 foot hull where you just drop an 18 rig on it, you can do that in your garage. If you want specifically designed/sized and fabricated components for the spars, masts, controls etc. the sourcing costs go way up for dies, molds, designs, and dont forget, somebody has to inventory all these pieces (you cann't buy 1 piece of aluminum there a min mill run quantity).