Why?

It has everything to do with the discussion at hand.

What does the 20 need to be successful? Why not look at the F18's who have drawn the 20 sailors and look at that?

Actual truth is,I'm trying to break your allegiance to the F-18s and get you as crew.Imagine the possibilities.

When Beth and I did the Spacecoast 45 earlier this year on the 20 (combined weight of 320), we were smoking fast downwind and in the light stuff, but as soon as the wind came up to a double trap velocity, we could not hold the boat down and the the F16's and F18's just walked away from us. Now we're on an 18 and I think it much better suits us. Of course, I'll still miss the 20.

Tad,
I think what appears to be N-20 sailors jumping ship to the F-18 is merely the fact that the development of the F-18 came into it's own and some of the folks sailing N-20s were in over their head as far as power goes. It's logical that when the F-18s developed, the smaller lighter guys and gals would go to a more manageable platform(See above post from Karl). It's still fun to blame JW for everything but it ain't his or the class' fault.It's about DEVELOPMENT which will probably turn this into a SMOD vs. Formula thread , which has been puked up a million times before, so let's not go there, here, another thread maybe.
Tawd

The difference is really felt when you move off flat water onto the ocean. Forget that I am a big guy. But what I want is a boat with enough freeboard that you are not getting slapped by every other wave. A boat with enough power to drive through the afternoon chop that comes with the afternoon seabreeze. Enough bow to drive into the back of a wave and not worry about going end over end. A rear beam high enough so its not acting like a parking break. And there is a lot to be said for the wide beam, just ask the guys on the supercats.

I'm not blaming JW for anything. I'm trying to relate to him that a huge reason behind the decline of the N20 class was because of PROMINENT sailors going to the F18. Asking them why they flipped, it almost universally "theres more [international] competition in the F18's".

Also, I don't think the "too much power" argument sits well...

Lets make a list of former 20 sailors who went F18 shall we?
JC
Nigel/Alex
Krantz/Lennard
Titcomb
BK
... just to name a few...

I think you'd be hard pressed to say that those guys can't handle the power of the 20.

Honestly she really doesn't say too much about it either way. It's the sets and snuffs that zap the energy and there really isn't much of a difference between the two in that regard. She can work the spin sheet for hours but a few sets and snuffs in quick succession and she's looking for the oxygen bottle and me too when I'm on the front of the boat.



At the time I did but I had this illusion that the boys were doing it quicker. Kathy and I have a couple of tricks that really help but dudes would be a bit insulted with the assist. When I put a dude on the front of the boat for a season the differences turned out be quite minor and he was a fitness nazi but, he was LOT higher maintenance than Kathy.

There are a lot of reasons I switched to the F18. Mostly it was for the promise and potential the class has which in our area is finally starting to deliver.

I disagree with John, The demise of the 20 footers is not due to it being a dick forest or skewed to heavyweights. The T class (optimum team weight 325-340lbs), N20 and N6.0's are members of the dead boat society or zombie boats for more profound reasons.

There is power in calling your shot (just like pool)

When you call your shot... you set up and expectation. When the class delivers on the expectations... the Class sailors are very happy and they come back for more....
If you just leave it to chance... you just don't get the same feeling when you get 10 boats to a race by chance(we were lucky?) .... you certainly don't have anything to count on for the next event in the region.

For example,
The F18 CLASS calls their shot and declares they will have a regional championship (Southern Championship at Spring Fever) for their fleet. They have a North East championship and a circuit in New England.

I listen to the questions that Hobie Sailors have for me about the A class. Those guys go racing and they know what to ask about a class. Since they count on the other Hobie sailors in their class to go racing and turnout for the agreed on schedule, They want to know... How many A cat Events? Where is it published? Where are they? and What is the turnout? Who is racing the boat? Is the class national or regional or just local? Who is the local class guru that could offer some advice in getting into a boat and the class? The track record matters... the more often we deliver and meet expectations the stronger the class actually is. The more often we hit the mark... the more attractive the class is to racers.

Look at the Hobie 16 Class. They have been successful for years and years for a reason. They publish a schedule, score high points, etc and do lots of other basic stuff known to be essential for a strong class. They do a great job of calling their shot and getting the information out there. Their racers know that they are in the class together and commit to their schedule. In my area, on average almost 3/4's of the 16 class turn out for the schedule they agree to. If you are a Hobie 16 sailor you are never upset that your class did not post for the regatta that you spent time and money on attending.

Racers buy a boat so they can compete in the Races (distance or buoys) they like and the regattas they want to go to and compete against others in their class (handicap or OD). Nobody is going to buy a toy without a great deal of confidence in where and how much you are going to play with it.

JW commented that the N20 class was a dick forest... The A class is just as male.. and that has not been a problem for growth.

JW commented that the crew weight requirements were high and implied that this was a problem. Well, the Hobie 16 crew weight requirement is LOW and that hasn't been an unmanageable issue.

If the 20's are loosing ground to F18's, then the 20 fleet needs to really market their perceived niche and do a great job on the basic class stuff.

The basics of a sailing class are universal. The virtues of the N20 platform are almost irrelevant if you don't get commitment on the basic class stuff.

(I bailed on the Tornado (the best ride I have ever sailed) when the class members failed to commit at the local level.. (8 boats at one time max turnout once of 4 boats) and when the schedule became 3 events in the USA (miami, Houston and the west coast) and no interest in coordinating with the N20's on a racing schedule.)

Or... there is just less interest in racing... and rigging bigger beach cats.

I still don't get the N-20 in the Dead boat society quote,that I keep seeing. They regularly see more boats at events than f-18s and that's not a dead boat. So what's up with that BS? It might be dead in the EU, but it ain't here.Just different guys sailing them.
Tad,
All those guys you listed except BK(no comment) are a bunch of pansies who can't handle THE POWER,especially JC.
Don't fear the Power,Feel the Power, Embrace the Power.
Tawd

It's NOT a dead boat... Its' a Zombie boat.

The Tornado is a member of the dead boat society. The Nacra 6.0 is a dead boat.

What do you call a Nacra F18..(with an Infusion the current boat)... What do you call a Tiger when faced with a Wildcat?

They are not dead they can race effectively in the F18 class... they still live they are just zombies!

Nacra 20 is 20' so your argument is weak.What's replacing it?

I think yes, and yes. A bystander made a joke to me about the time it took to rig my 18 this past weekend. And the rigging and disassembly is one of the biggest reasons there are so few new folks sailing.

Tad, I think the missing element here is where most of the sailors on this site sail, inland. Lake sailing and ocean sailing are totally different beasts. If I had only been exposed to lake sailing I would have no interest. I learned to sail in the ocean and would honestly prefer to sail no where else. In the ocean the N20 sings, thats its place, where it belongs, what it was designed for, what it likes, etc. The F18 can handle either but is a better lake boat. Proximity to ocean, lack of offshore races is going to hurt a boat like the N20. There is just not enough of what it does best. Look at the 2 OBX races, neither are in the ocean. In fact the only true ocean race that has been held in the old div 9 area for years other than the Tybee was the Ya Gotta and its gone now as well. The locations and type of racing being done doesn't require a boat like the N20

Just about everyone I know from the 6.0 Class went to the Nacra 20 - certainly in the Panhandle area of Florida. The N20 offered a new option for those who raced 20-footers. I think the 6.0 was an awesome design - it just lacked a factory spinnaker set-up. The NE option came a bit too late to keep the first few teams from jumping. I did the 2000 Spring Fever on a 6.0, and was on the N20 for 2001. I think 2003 was the last year that the 6.0s made class at Nationals. It was ever-after on 20s for me until 2006.

Nothing... and that's the problem..

No new N20's... going to class members who need a tight boat to race competitively and thereby generating used boats for more big guys who grow the class.

No new design boats coming online to race or challenge the N20 sailors on the Formula or level rating race course.

No big race which allows the 20's to kick butt relative to the F18's...

I feel your pain... been there... I watched the T dissolve underneath me. The only difference is that the Olympic boot pulled the trigger on the class.

Undecided, now this thread is going where the others have gone. All beaten to death
We should not even touch on F18 vs. N20 as long as it was properties of a new 20 footer Mini wanted to discuss. The N20 vs the other sailors is just too political and emotional. That topic is both interesting and contagious it seems, so please, a new thread.

Rolf

Bundy told me... dump the Tornado... get a Tiger.. five years before I finally dumped the T.

His advice... the T spin changes were designed to keep the international fleet at the same crew range as the classic T. ...The F18 occupied the same market for crews and was just getting going in AUS and the USA. His point... it was cheaper and easier to manage the boat on a trailer and sailed well on the water dump the T and get the Tiger and a 150 lb crew. It will be the dominant spin class

(My judgement was the F18 would not take off in the USA like gangbusters and did not follow his advice... that call was accurate)

IMO There is no advantage for a 20 footer at 8 foot 6 inches wide if you want to build an all around boat.

I would love for a designer to tell us how to do this at 8 foot 6 inches in beam.... what boat weight... what stick height and bend characteristic would do it. Seems to me that what is needed is a 20 footer that captures the full crew weight range. 320 to 420 + lbs.

I think the requirements gives you a 9 foot wide boat with the right mast/sail.

Take a page from hobie... the TheMightyHobie18 overlapped the H16 class (and grew), the Hobie 20 overlapped the H16-18 class and grew).... Trying to carve out your niche above the popular F18/F16 niche leaves you with too small market.

We "knew" the F18 thing was coming, did we not? Another question which would be more interesting is: When will the F18 class stop growing, and what happens then? But that should be a topic in another thread..

So you want a 20 footer optimized for crew weight 320 to 420+ lbs. I think a 20 footer should be aimed for 440lbs (200kg) crew weight to fit the "big boys" in the western world. Just my opinion of course. What else would you like to see in a 20 footer?

better make that 450#

The EU I20 had a different sail plan (smaller) than the US boats did. The EU was F20 compliant (like the H-Fox) while the US I20 is not.



John just wants to be able to wear his bikini in public and not get all the cat calls he used to get at the I20 regattas ;-)


To me, the 20's are boats that can be pushed harder in bigger conditions. When I've been on the F18's I've always felt like I didn't have enough boat out in front of me in a blow or "big" chop.

I quite enjoy being on a light weight 20' boat. I've not sailed the M20, but the CFR sails like a dream. If you could build the I20 150 lbs lighter, it would be a completely different boat (for the better). IMO for a new 20' boat to move forward, it's going to have to be lighter.