Key West serves as a Big boat Handicap Nationals and it succeeds because there are a huge number of monohulls who race PHRF and their owners choose to not conform to a OD standard. They travel to Key west for national competition in the rating bands that the chief handicapper sets up.

Nationwide, we don't have enough dead boat society racing boats to make a Portsmouth class. For instance in the Chesapeake, we have a SC22, a H20(DBS on the east coast) a N6.0. These boats have not made a weekend race this season and passed on last seasons big "run what you brung Handicap race aka the Pumpkin Patch which is also scored for One design classes.

The Alter qualifiers could not survive on Portsmouth only sailors. It is built on One design racers competing on Portsmouth.



No doubt! the question is... Is there enough oxygen, time, money, and sailors for both kinds of events.

Hi Bob -

I've never ever looked at the Alter Cup the way you describe. I have always seen it as a chance for the top sailors from each one-design class to face off. You're good on a Hobie 16. Ever wonder how you stack up against a Nacra 20 guy on a Formula 16? Maybe it is because I've sailed in so many cat classes that I get really jazzed when all my Hobie and Nacra friends are at the same event. Tad, there's another reason I went to the F18, but it had roots in the Alter Cup experience. Best guys from different parts of the country, different classes, different backgrounds, all sailing 'round robin format on possibly a completely unfamiliar platform.

That’s why you are an Alter cup champion and I’m not. You care about the event.
From my perspective I can’t see myself making the Alter cup a goal of mine because I can’t train for it if I don’t know what the boats are going to be at least four years ahead of time. Now if I had unlimited vacation time I’d probably do the event just for kicks but that’s not the case at this point in my life.
So given limited time and resources should I focus on the Hobie 16 NA’s or the Alter cup? I think almost all of the US Sailing championships run into this problem. If you are a member of a strong OD class I think that is going to be your natural priority. On the other hand if your OD class is not so big or if it’s so small that you usually race Portsmouth the Alter Cup is a nice opportunity to go to a great competitive championship that your class may not have.
I think the Alter cup is a great event and this is just my explanation of why you will probably not see a big buy-in from the larger one design classes.

I guess I mean to say that I agree folks will have their OD events as a priority, but I don't see that as an obstacle or detractor for the AC. It isn't "one or the other," IMO.

It is interesting how differently people think about the Alter Cup these days compared to when it originated back in about 1985.

When Gordon Isco and others (wish I could remember all their names) managed to get the Multihull Council as part of US Sailing and THEN to get a US Multihull Championship on US Sailing's roster!! Well, I can tell you those were spectacular achievements. Back then.

Being able to qualify to go to the Alter Cup was an honor that was a step above anything else, including class championships. Back then.

It was great to be recognized by US Sailing in this way and to have our own National Multihull Championship. What a breakthrough into the mainstream sailing world!

It has now been almost 25 years since that momentous occasion. And look what we have done with this opportunity.

As Randy Smyth always says in regard to racing, "Look at the big picture." And we have not done that with the catamaran world in general.

To John Williams,
No insults intended, but all that selection yada yada, is just that. I know of several times when at the last minute organizers called local sailor friends to fill spots.
So much for the organized selection junk.

And I agree with Mary, we took a perfectly fine format used by the sailing world and screwed it up.

I know lots of folks disagree with me.., and that is your choice. But, this is my opinion.
Rick

So Rick and Mary

Aside from Money, the current problem is that the qualifiers are irrelevant to the majority of competitive racers.

Are you saying that a major reason is that these racers don't compete in qualifiers because it's no fun to compete against the class winners as well as the other area winners ... should they win?

I have to say reasons raised in this thread like;

We are over scheduled...One more regatta is just not doable, especially one where I might have to travel 4+ hours.

My One Design nationals will always get my time and money over the USSA championship.

I sail a blah blah type of boat (sloop or single handed) and the championship is always on a spin boat so I am not competitive on a spin boat and not interested in getting crushed or the championship was on a simple boat and the spin rock stars simply did not want to play.

The Alter Championship is for sailors who don't have a big national OD championship to anchor their sailing season.

The PN ratings have boats with sweat heart ratings and so the qualifier is predetermined.

Are much more plausible... and problems that you can come up with solutions for!

Don't competitors have to rent a boat? Or is that picked up by Hoyt-Jolly?

I must have missed something. Mark, what exactly are your suggested solutions to these problems?

Mike

If it's important to sailors... Don't over schedule! Cut out a regatta and replace with Qualifier when your region sits down and hammers out a schedule...





These are complaints about the actual championship. I don't think most people worry about this until they win.

One team wins the slot. So all you need is one team to choose the USSA championships that year... I don't think the national format is that much of show stopper. I would insist that you work your way down the results list. The first one to commit goes. Some years... you may have a stronger field then others...But that all depends on where you are standing and looking from.... The winner will be the USSA Alter cup champion.

I really think to get the numbers... The qualifier has to be valuable to all of the OD classes who you are asking to support the event.

I propose using the Areas as an inter class championship in order to make it interesting? that's my preference.

As a reward for attending get double high points towards your one design season series.

Perhaps others would prefer charity event to drive interest



Fix PN... (a difficult thing to do)
Change to SCHRS. A measurement based system that areas that have a lot more handicap racing are using with less complaints.

Bottom line. OD classes need to look into the future and decide that their sailors benefit from having this kind of event on the schedule in their region. Otherwise... pull the plug and save the energy.

Thanks, Mark. I genuinely think that we need drastically different answers, those have been tried and simply aren't working.

Schedule: In strong areas, no one wants to give up an event. And, even in places with few regattas (NE), no one goes to the Area Qualifiers (AQs).

Going down the list for who to send to the AC finals: We've done that for years, that doesn't drive anyone to the AQs.

Interclass championship? That's what it already is, no one cares.

Double points? I suggested that here earlier (along with OD class support), no one else has chimed in to support that idea.

Charity? We've done that in Area A, didn't see that it mattered.

Any rating system is going to favor one boat over another. That's definitely a hard nut to crack.


So, let's start thinking way outside the box...


If we could set up a program with some serious cash, do you think it would help if attendance at the AC finals was all-expenses paid? In other words, win your AQ, get a free trip to compete in the AC finals? Yes, I'm talking flight, hotel, meals, charter fee, and entry fee. Obviously, that would take a significant donation, but let's pretend we have the money, would that entice people to try???


A totally different idea, could the event be set up to run only on F18s going forward? Do we have enough faith in that fleet to exist in large numbers for many years to come? The AQs could still be run on whatever you bring (so you don't have to deal with charter boats at the local level), just make the finals always be on the F18.

This would "hurt" the H16 and A cat sailors, but if they're already not showing up, does it matter?

Standardizing on a single platform might give teams a better shot at training, it's a multi-manufacturer class, and people on lots of existing boats should be able to transition easily.

Mike

Sadly, I agree.
I reviewed the thread.
I've made the best case that I can for why the event is valuable.... Ah well.

Oh come on guys, don't guage the lack of support based on posts on this forum. We know there is only a handfull of sailors that post here.

Besides the three of us on the same page has to mean something, normally it would mean the end of days.

Mike, an all expenses paid championship would be beach cat sailors wet dream and would completely turn it around. But my rough budget puts it at about 35k-42k to pull off.

As for the single platform solution... I'm not convinced it would bring more interest. It could potentially solve the problem getting a manufacturer to provide boats and it presents new problems as well. My prefernce would be to stick with the manfacturer provided boats until it's played out then make the switch.

You may not have to drop an event to support the AQ. What we did this year is we combined the AQ with a reguarly scheduled regatta and I suspect the numbers this year will be better than in years past even with the manditory USSailing membership and one start requirement. If you have a lightly attended regatta that could be your candidate. I prefer a standalone AQ but we need to be flexible.

Don't you b!tches give up!

Sadly, we've tried the combo event in Area A, had the worst turnout ever for the AQ. This was done at Roton Point. I think that was the year that something like 2-3 boats participated in the AQ. There were plenty of others there, including lots of the NENSA guys who normaly were the biggest supporters of the AQ when it was at Quincy. This time, they all wanted to race one-design.

I wasn't there, but Bob was.

I'm not being negative at all, just trying to find ways to entice people to attend. I think we need new, out-of-the-box thinking.

Regattas overall are on the decline, we need to do something drastic to improve this one.

Mike

Just throwing out another idea.

In looking to satisfy the one design sailor and the AQ requirements. Maybe choose three boats. I would choose the F18, A-Cat and Hobie 16. Have three starts, one for each. Minimum 5 Qualify per class. The winner is the lowest score regardless of class. Everyone races their class, there is a contender for the Championship, and you do not have to worry about Portsmouth numbers.

Odd boats do not get to play. Different areas may choose different classes.

Is is totally fair, no, but it is something different.

Later,
Dan

Yes, because they would be "unwelcome" (had to throw that in there... )