So... would you run a regatta with out liability insurance for the OA and ALL OF THE VOLUNTEERS WHO HELP RUN THE REGATTA?

How about... would you personally pick up the keg with your credit card and serve booze at a regatta without liquor liability for the organization?

Alternatively.... If you settled on just the waiver statement that you have people sign... Will that solution go over with your wife? I don't think so!

The cost is about 900 bucks a year for this liability coverage... you can't cheat by getting three clubs to split the cost (that is not legal and explicitly prohibited by the insurance contract you sign).

Next time you complain about the cost of the event... take the number of boats you see and divide into the $900 fixed costs.

Most of the time... these details don't matter.. Until they matter and then the bite could be nasty.

Mark,

I didn't quote your post, because it would have gotten too complicated. US Sailing's prescriptions are there to separate the function of holding a protest hearing from the function of awarding damages. In other countries (as I understand it), protest committees adjudicate damages as well as apply the rules.

In the US, there are multiple legal considerations to worry about. One is the doctrine of "assumption of risk". Under this doctrine, your voluntary participation means you accept all risk and whatever happens to you is your own fault. The US Sailing prescription explicitly revokes this doctrine.

Another determination of fault is the COLREGS. The US Sailing prescription says that the COLREGS do not apply, the Racing Rules of Sailing apply instead. So, application of the rules determines who was at fault and liability should be assessed accordingly. I realize that this can get very complicated - but the complications are not due to the Racing Rules, they are due to US tort law. There's nothing US Sailing can do about that.

Another legal doctrine is that of "deep pockets", which can really mess things up. Basically it says that whoever can pay, must pay. This one will get you. Regardless of primary fault, if you bear any responsibilty, you can wind up footing the entire bill. This is a good reason to carry insurance.

If there is contact causing damage, be sure to protest. Have a hearing. Represent yourself well. Get written documentation of the results and give that to your insurer. Then get ready for unpleasantness, as no insurance payout is ever easy.

Regards,
Eric

Well... FACTS FOUND is the rub.

It's great if fact's found are agreed on by all parties.

god knows how tenuous the connection between facts found and reality is for many people... (discuss death panels or illegal alien insurance coverage in the other thread please)

I don't know what redress I have if I disagree with the "facts found" in a protest hearing.

The overlap of legal liablity, who pays for what, the RR of sailing and the corinthian sport of sailing is a mess...

Want more evidence...take the Farah Hall fiasco and changes the courts imposed on USSA and the whole system.

I don't know about you... but I remain confused about the current situation.

Hi Eric



this is my practical understanding of the prescription as well.

Does anyone know if a particular insurance policy will honor the RR of Sailing or will they use the colregs instead?

At some point you get sick of it and say Oh the hell with it... This is my insurance policy... I pray I don't get screwed when i make my next big mistake.

This is all a balance between keeping the regatta requirement for protest committee / judging low enough that regattas can actually happen (something you seem to be in favor of), while being able to contribute positively to most legal/liability situations that arise.

Mark, if you fix the judging / protest committee side of things to make it completely water tight on legal/liable issues, nobody will ever be able to put a committee together to meet those requirements and nobody will have a regatta. It's all a balance between was practical and practicable and the percentage of situations for which the system fails. Tilt one way, you lose the other. I think the system as a whole balances pretty well.

yes they do - and maritime attorneys (at least the one my insurance company worked with) will stand behind the RRS. Findings from a protest hearing quickly simplified my contested insurance claim.

From a rules perspective, (almost) none. The facts are what the protest committee finds them to be. That is why it is so important to present your case well at the hearing. An appeal can dispute a protest committee's application of the rules, but not the facts found. At best, you might be able to convice a PC to reopen a hearing, but unless significant new evidence comes to light, that is unlikely. I can tell you that finding the facts is the most difficult part of a protest hearing. It's rare that the parties agree on them. Two people can see the same event and honestly give two drastically different reports. PC has to sift through the testimony, reconstruct the incident, apply their knowledge of the physics of sailing, and determine what actually happened.

From a legal perspective, a lawsuit is a whole new can of worms. A court is not bound by a protest committee's findings, but is likely to give them weight.

**** to deal with.

Now, I could pay my deductible and have the additional burden of "be responsible" for the other guys' out of pocket expenses if he perceives that I am responsible under the RR of sailing "responsiblity" standard.

<**** to deal with.

Now, I could pay my deductible and have the additional burden of "be responsible" for the other guys' out of pocket expenses if he perceives that I am responsible under the RR of sailing "responsiblity" standard.

It would make no sense whatsoever to "play the game" by one set of rules, and assess liability for damages under a different set. When you compete, you agree that the RRS will apply. If your insurance carrier won't cover you under those conditions, find another carrier.


Imagine how bad it would be if the RRS applied to racing, and the COLREGS applied for damages. You'd have two conflicting sets of rules governing right-of-way. Every time boats met, you'd have to choose between liability and disqualification.


That would be analogous to police ticketing every car involved in a collision. While it is possible for multiple boats (even all boats) involved in a collision to be disqualified, I don't think it makes sense to do so automatically. If a faster boat than yours comes up from behind and rams you (despite your best efforts to get away), do you really believe you should be disqualified?


You have that "burden" anyway. Sports are not like driving. There is no law that requires "no-fault" insurance for sailing like there is for driving. There's going to be some rules involved (the RRS, or something else) and there will be liability for damages accordingly. I'm glad that US Sailing makes it clear that the RRS are those rules.

Regards,
Eric

Ouch... Well that was a totally dumb idea. It would really change the game.

Still on the problem of Responsibility and Insurance.

Take a windward leeward collision. Windward with spin can't see leeward until it is too late.... Leeward is not paying attention and does not see windward until it's too late to avoid collision. Everyone has a story about what the other guy did or did not do to avoid the collision.

Or take a down wind port starboard cross where Port says... I thought I could make it... but was wrong and Starboard clipped my rudders BUT he could have headed up and avoided the collision... Starboard. I thought he would make it and held my course... He did not make it and I could not avoid his rudders... it was a puff!.

Windward is tossed. The protest committee decides that Both sailors failed to keep a proper lookout and avoid the collision.

Port is tossed, Again, the Protest committee decides that Both sailors failed to avoid a collision and starboard is tossed.

So, taking the prescription as is.
Doing your best to get the facts found to be as accurate as possible and separated from opinion at the PC hearing.

I am the burdened boat in both protests. Is my "responsibility" complete after the Insurance company takes all of the information and says... We decide to pay x% and apportions blame equally or whatever. Am I just unreasonable about the word "Responsible"

In other words... so long as I have liability insurance, I am responsible. I have no problems after the insurance company resolves the claim?

It's this weekend. If you're not doing the Cat Caper get yourself to Nigels. The kids are planning some kind of drinking game... if you're into that.

Oh it will be great.... I hope there are video cameras present :P

no food or drink Sat. unless you are in costume!

yeah thats putting me in a bind.

2 days to prepare a costume is a bit on the demanding side.

You could pull of a Frankenstein without much effort... you even take batteries.

I'm just curious ... how's the water level progressing in Lake Lenier after all the rain that been falling lately in the southeast???? Has it risen significantly????

Tad,

How about going as the "Mummy" ... a six-pack of toilet paper should do it. I'm sure you'll be able to find some volunteers to "wrap you up" .....

Harry

No kiddin...two green bolts, some glue, and you're there dude!

I got my costume all figured out. The prizes for the costume contest have been purchased.

I'm getting ocnflicting wind reports. One site say 6 from the south, another says 16. They both say lotsa rain. I'm going to be wearing my wet gear.

Bring your ski hat... it was great even thou it was 40 or so degress and rainy and windy for our qualifier.