Eric - One more question regarding the moored boat. Since I (leeward boat) had to bear of to clear the boats stern, could I have hailed to the windward boat that I wanted to pass the boat to windward, and forced him to give me room to tack? Rule 19.2 Giving Room at an Obstruction
(a) A right-of-way boat may choose to pass an obstruction on
either side.

Eric,

Just to clarify this in my own mind.
In a mark rounding you have to provide room for the overlaped boat to execute a rounding. You do not have to provide them room to do a rounding where they go wide/sail where they wish.

Given this why if in Robi's case, assuming that there was plenty of time to avoid the obsticle to either side, would the leward boat be obligated to allow them to decide how they were to pass it. I see where they could not come up to force closure at the last minute.

Thanks

Matt

Well, the term "substantial" is not defined in the rules, so this is a bit of a gray area. If all you have to do is foot off a little to safely pass an obstruction, then I'd typically rule that your course change was not substantial. In that case, rule 20.3 denies you room to tack. You must duck instead. Rule 19 requires you to give an overlapped boat room to avoid the obstruction as well.

I hope that helps,
Eric
US Sailing Certified Judge
Member, Area D Appeals Committee

Perfect!

I can still see where this could get messy, but I do like knowing how judges think in these grey areas.

Thank you sir.

True! A boat you are required to keep clear of is an obstruction to you. If she is also an obstruction to a boat overlapped on the inside, then rule 19 may require you give her room to avoid her.

I encourage everyone to flip to the back of their rule books and read the Definitions. They are three of the most illuminating pages in the book.

Regards,
Eric

And if you don't have a book you can see it online and no you don't have to be a member, but maybe....

http://www.ussailing.org/rules/

Anywhere outside of the 3 boatlength zone, the important thing to consider is how the overlap was established. If the leeward boat gained the overlap from astern of the windward boat, then she is only entitled to sail as high as her proper course- no higher. Proper course is a subjective thing, but I think that if you are on the layline to the finish, you would have a hard time proving that any course above the layline is not above your proper course.

If the windward boat established the overlap from clear astern, then the leeward boat has no proper course limitations and may take the windward boat head to wind if she pleases.

Once the first boat enters the three boat circle, the outside boat must give the inside boat mark room if an overlap exists. This is treated exactly the same as any other leeward gate situation.

The only way you could prevent someone from finishing would be if you are the leeward boat and in a situation where you are not restricted by proper course limitations (i.e. someone tries to pass you to windward), you could head that person up as high as you please outside of the 3 lenght zone. You would then have to bear off extremely quickly, breaking the overlap and shooting down to the mark. Since the overlap was broken, the inside boat would not be entitled to room and you could close the door on them. Frankly, I doubt it could be pulled off on a catamaran, perhaps in a dinghy.

sm

Not quite. The tactical considerations depend on the positions of the boats. Rule 18 no longer supercedes the rules of Section A (rules 10-13), so port tack boats still have to keep clear of starboard tackers, windward has to keep clear of leeward, etc. If the inside boat has right-of-way, that gives her the ability to take more than just "mark-room". That means she can make a "tactical rounding". If the outside boat has right-of-way, then she need not give the inside boat anything more than "mark-room". That is pretty much (technically a little different but very similar to) room for a "seamanlike rounding".


That is not quite Robi's scenerio. That one involves "room" at an obstruction, not "mark-room" at a mark. Take a look at the definitions of "room" and "mark-room" and you'll see that they are different.

Let's look at this situation without involving rule 20 (room to tack). Suppose that two overlapped boats are sailing towards an anchored boat. The sizes and sailing characteristics of the boats involved are such that the leeward boat (L) can either pinch up and shoot above the obstruction, or bear away to pass below. Rule 19.2(a) gives L the choice of which way to go. The windward boat (W) has no say in the matter.

If L chooses to pass above the obstruction, then she is the inside boat. W must must give her room under rule 19.2(b) and keep clear under rule 11. Rule 16 (changing course) still applies so L must act early enough to allow W to keep clear.

If L chooses to pass below the obstruction, then W is the inside boat. L must give her room under rule 19.2(b). W must keep clear of L under rule 11.

I hope that helps,
Eric

There are some moves that you can put on another boat to pass her before the finish. In this scenerio (downwind finish, overlapped) if L is not restricted to her proper course by rule 17, then outside the zone, she can head up and drive W to the point where they have to gybe back to the finish. If they go far enough, then L will be ahead after the gybe. If not, she'll be inside and to leeward at the finish and won't have to give W room. This tactic may even work better on catamarans, because gybing duels are typically more difficult than on monohull dinghies.

On upwind finishes, one of my favorite tricks is to get on the lead boat's weather hip on the last tack before the layline. Even though W is behind, she controls L's tack. W then drives L well past the layline, to the point where she can tack in front of L and reach to the finish. This ploy works better on cats than monohulls, because it's harder to control a boat that tacks quickly.

Regards,
Eric

Hi Eric -

In the Brad Dellenbaugh rules seminar, he warned that mark room does not entitle you to a seamanlike rounding. He said you get to go straight to the mark, that's it. No coming up for speed, maneuvering, etc... you get to sail "proper course" when you get to the mark, but for some distance (60 feet?) you're screwed. Monohulls might be able to pull off a mark-room rounding, but I think a cat in particular can get into a world of hurt inside the zone when "entitled" to mark room only. After the scenarios we explored during the seminar, I've been even more careful about the zone at the gate.

It might be differently interpreted by a cat-savvy judge, maybe? Interested in your take.

What an awesome discussion.

Karl no worries im a cheap drunk I barely drink any alcohol.

Thanks for the clarifications Eric.

Yes, the definition of "mark-room" is a little different than the old "room". That's why I included the weasel-words in my previous post. For those not thoroughly conversant with last year's rule 18, I usually say the game hasn't changed. If you did have a firm understanding, some of the details are a little different. Here's my take on mark-room (which I got from Dave Perry at the February SAYRA Judge's Seminar).

Last year, "room" always meant time and space while acting promptly in a seamanlike way. Now, "mark-room" has two parts:
1) "room" to sail to the mark, and
2) when at the mark, "room" to sail your proper course.

The first part is a little less room than the old rules allowed. They were generally read to allow a "seamanlike rounding", where the apex of your turn was at the mark. That meant you could come into the a little wider (though still not as wide as a tactical rounding). Now you just get room straight to the mark.

The second part, however, gives you a little more room than previously. You get room to sail your proper course when at the mark, which could include more space than needed for a seamanlike rounding. For example, if the course or the wind conditions make your proper course to tack around the mark, then "mark-room" includes room to tack.

From a catamaran racing point of view, I think the differences are probably smaller. We generally approach a mark (particularly leeward marks) much hotter than most monohulls. Our normal entry angle to a leeward mark would usually permit a seamanlike rounding anyway. While you could drive a windward boat directly above a leeward mark, turn down, and make it sail dead downwind directly to the mark, that would be slow.

Likewise, we rarely tack on the leeward mark. It's almost always faster to build up some speed after rounding and then tack. So, cats typically wouldn't use that bit of extra room anyway. Ours is more a game of speed and less of maneuvering than it is for monohulls.

I think these distinctions may be important for Alter Cup or Olympic caliber sailors, but not so much for the rest of us. At my level of racing, I'm still giving boats pretty much the same amount of room as I did last year.

Does that make sense? What sort of scenerios make you uneasy at gate roundings?

Regards,
Eric

Very crowded gates that are less than 6 boat lengths apart.

Erik, Mike or Matt

Whats the requirement on the gate with a three boat length zone for cats.

The 16 sailors were telling me that 3 + 3 + 2 BL's was too much distance between the marks.
_

I don't want to think about how the rules apply in overlapped zones. Last year, US Sailing used to recommend gate lengths of 5-8 boatlengths. I haven't seen an updated recommendation, but I always advise PROs to set them longer than 6, and usually 7 or 8 boatlengths.

This is one of the things that the current rules made a little more difficult. Short gates lead to strange rule interactions. Long gates tend to be too favored at one end, causing the whole fleet to go to that side (thus negating their usefulness). RC needs to be more careful with gate marks now.

Regards,
Eric

There is no requirement - only the race officer's judgement and (usually) the ability of the gate mark boat to set marks where the RO wants them.

In anything up to about 15 kts, I try to keep the gate at 7 BL (115 ft) for Hobie 16s. More wind = wider gate. A problem arises when you have multiple classes on the same course. 7 BL for Hobie 20s is 140 ft = 8+ Hobie 16 BLs. Spinnaker boats need an even wider gate, especially when the wind picks up.

Setting the gate is difficult when your average GPS is only accurate to ~15 ft - assuming your gate boat driver knows how to use one. Deep water is problematic, too. At the Soling Canadian Nationals, we were setting marks in 170 feet, making the gate set very tough. Current can play games with you too, as the marks will "skate" around in a circle if the current is opposite to the wind and the windage of the marks = the drag of the current. You have to minimize the scope on the anchors, while still keeping them in one place on the bottom.

As far as getting the gate square, Eric is right - the wider the gate, the more the competitors are likely to treat it as a single leeward mark by favoring one side. Nirvanna for the RO is getting an even split at the gate. It's a lot harder to do with monohulls than it is for catamarans. I will adjust the gate on every lap, trying to get the even split.

Good points. Just like with the starting line, the right angle between gate marks is whatever gets the fleet to split evenly. Good PROs (or good mark boat officers) understand the fleet(s) involved and set the gate accordingly.

The monohull observation is accurate too. From my experience, high-performace dinghies will tend to go to whichever gate mark is closer to the wind. If one end of the gate is more than one boat-length favored, 90% of Melges 24s will go to that side. The other 10% go the other way just to get out of traffic, or to take a flier because they are behind.

Catamarans tend not to go for the favored mark so much, as for the favored side of the course. It's worth sailing a little farther to the mark to go the right way without having to tack.

Most keelboats I've seen, as well as less-experienced racers, tend to favor the port-rounding mark, so RC needs to favor the left gate mark a little.

The key in all cases, is to know just how much to bias the line against the wind to get the boats to use both marks. I've been fortunate to work with some excellent PROs as well as olympic-caliber mark-boat operators. The PROs get input from all the support boats, make their decision, and simply tell everyone a single course bearing and distance. Everybody knows from that where to set their marks. The leeward mark boat operators are capable of setting marks as closely as we can measure. I've kidded them for being one degree off. At the Sunfish Worlds, it was a thing of beauty to watch 45 boats use one gate mark, and 53 the other - even though current considerations sent them all to the right side of the course.

Regards,
Eric

Interesting.

The fleet was dividing equally between the gate marks.

The complaint was they were too far apart. 8 boat lengths for the 18 fleet.

Not sure if this is a valid complaint or not.

As a competitor, when the gate was 6 boat lengths (or shorter) ...I tend to sail to the middle and then decide based on traffic first.... then favored tack/side which way to round.

With a wide gate... I assume that the sailors are missing this option and had to decide sooner which gate mark to choose.

So.. if the gate is viewed as fair... Is it a problem if the gate is too wide (8 x 18) ... Is the complaint reasonable or not?

Depends on the wind and the number of boats.

If it was less than 15 kts and 10 boats, I'd say the gate was unecessarily wide.

Thanks all

We get these questions from the dinghy RC folks who ask ... Well... What do you want? You don't think about this RC stuff ahead of time or consider the issues with some insight.... If you give them half baked ideas, then you can get a crap shoot and lots of would of... could of after the fact .. Worse, they won't do another cat regatta for a while and all is forgotten by the next event for that RC team.

Much better to get experienced input on the nitty gritty details ahead of time from RC's who have done this a lot! Thanks.


A real RC challenge will be the American Yacht club HPDO regatta this weekend. A cats, F18's, Moths, I 14's, 5o5's Flying Dutchman, Contendors, 470's, Fireballs' Viper 640's, RS K6's. I will let you know how it goes!