| Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Jake]
#191913 09/24/09 09:11 PM 09/24/09 09:11 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | So... would you run a regatta with out liability insurance for the OA and ALL OF THE VOLUNTEERS WHO HELP RUN THE REGATTA? How about... would you personally pick up the keg with your credit card and serve booze at a regatta without liquor liability for the organization? Alternatively.... If you settled on just the waiver statement that you have people sign... Will that solution go over with your wife? I don't think so! The cost is about 900 bucks a year for this liability coverage... you can't cheat by getting three clubs to split the cost (that is not legal and explicitly prohibited by the insurance contract you sign). Next time you complain about the cost of the event... take the number of boats you see and divide into the $900 fixed costs. Most of the time... these details don't matter.. Until they matter and then the bite could be nasty.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191914 09/24/09 09:23 PM 09/24/09 09:23 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | Mark,
I didn't quote your post, because it would have gotten too complicated. US Sailing's prescriptions are there to separate the function of holding a protest hearing from the function of awarding damages. In other countries (as I understand it), protest committees adjudicate damages as well as apply the rules.
In the US, there are multiple legal considerations to worry about. One is the doctrine of "assumption of risk". Under this doctrine, your voluntary participation means you accept all risk and whatever happens to you is your own fault. The US Sailing prescription explicitly revokes this doctrine.
Another determination of fault is the COLREGS. The US Sailing prescription says that the COLREGS do not apply, the Racing Rules of Sailing apply instead. So, application of the rules determines who was at fault and liability should be assessed accordingly. I realize that this can get very complicated - but the complications are not due to the Racing Rules, they are due to US tort law. There's nothing US Sailing can do about that.
Another legal doctrine is that of "deep pockets", which can really mess things up. Basically it says that whoever can pay, must pay. This one will get you. Regardless of primary fault, if you bear any responsibilty, you can wind up footing the entire bill. This is a good reason to carry insurance.
If there is contact causing damage, be sure to protest. Have a hearing. Represent yourself well. Get written documentation of the results and give that to your insurer. Then get ready for unpleasantness, as no insurance payout is ever easy.
Regards, Eric | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191915 09/24/09 09:25 PM 09/24/09 09:25 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Well... FACTS FOUND is the rub.
It's great if fact's found are agreed on by all parties.
god knows how tenuous the connection between facts found and reality is for many people... (discuss death panels or illegal alien insurance coverage in the other thread please)
I don't know what redress I have if I disagree with the "facts found" in a protest hearing.
The overlap of legal liablity, who pays for what, the RR of sailing and the corinthian sport of sailing is a mess...
Want more evidence...take the Farah Hall fiasco and changes the courts imposed on USSA and the whole system.
I don't know about you... but I remain confused about the current situation.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Isotope235]
#191917 09/24/09 09:34 PM 09/24/09 09:34 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Hi Eric If there is contact causing damage, be sure to protest. Have a hearing. Represent yourself well. Get written documentation of the results and give that to your insurer. Then get ready for unpleasantness, as no insurance payout is ever easy.
this is my practical understanding of the prescription as well. Does anyone know if a particular insurance policy will honor the RR of Sailing or will they use the colregs instead? At some point you get sick of it and say Oh the hell with it... This is my insurance policy... I pray I don't get screwed when i make my next big mistake.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191921 09/24/09 09:53 PM 09/24/09 09:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | This is all a balance between keeping the regatta requirement for protest committee / judging low enough that regattas can actually happen (something you seem to be in favor of), while being able to contribute positively to most legal/liability situations that arise.
Mark, if you fix the judging / protest committee side of things to make it completely water tight on legal/liable issues, nobody will ever be able to put a committee together to meet those requirements and nobody will have a regatta. It's all a balance between was practical and practicable and the percentage of situations for which the system fails. Tilt one way, you lose the other. I think the system as a whole balances pretty well.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191922 09/24/09 09:55 PM 09/24/09 09:55 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Hi Eric If there is contact causing damage, be sure to protest. Have a hearing. Represent yourself well. Get written documentation of the results and give that to your insurer. Then get ready for unpleasantness, as no insurance payout is ever easy.
this is my practical understanding of the prescription as well. Does anyone know if a particular insurance policy will honor the RR of Sailing or will they use the colregs instead? At some point you get sick of it and say Oh the hell with it... This is my insurance policy... I pray I don't get screwed when i make my next big mistake. yes they do - and maritime attorneys (at least the one my insurance company worked with) will stand behind the RRS. Findings from a protest hearing quickly simplified my contested insurance claim.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191973 09/25/09 08:40 AM 09/25/09 08:40 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | I don't know what redress I have if I disagree with the "facts found" in a protest hearing. From a rules perspective, (almost) none. The facts are what the protest committee finds them to be. That is why it is so important to present your case well at the hearing. An appeal can dispute a protest committee's application of the rules, but not the facts found. At best, you might be able to convice a PC to reopen a hearing, but unless significant new evidence comes to light, that is unlikely. I can tell you that finding the facts is the most difficult part of a protest hearing. It's rare that the parties agree on them. Two people can see the same event and honestly give two drastically different reports. PC has to sift through the testimony, reconstruct the incident, apply their knowledge of the physics of sailing, and determine what actually happened. From a legal perspective, a lawsuit is a whole new can of worms. A court is not bound by a protest committee's findings, but is likely to give them weight. | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Isotope235]
#191981 09/25/09 09:13 AM 09/25/09 09:13 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | **** to deal with.
Now, I could pay my deductible and have the additional burden of "be responsible" for the other guys' out of pocket expenses if he perceives that I am responsible under the RR of sailing "responsiblity" standard.
Last edited by Mark Schneider; 09/25/09 09:15 AM.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191982 09/25/09 09:31 AM 09/25/09 09:31 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | <**** to deal with.
Now, I could pay my deductible and have the additional burden of "be responsible" for the other guys' out of pocket expenses if he perceives that I am responsible under the RR of sailing "responsiblity" standard.
Huh? You can still do all this. You're not signing over your ability to sue anyone...this is exactly why US Sailing added the prescription that "Hold Harmless" indemnification agreements could not be put in the NOR or the registration form. All that can go on the two is a release of liability in that you won't hold the organizing body (NOT other sailors), liable in the event of injury, damage, or death. That liability release is not even a very strong legal document but it gives the organizers some shelter should someone get a bone up their butt for some decision the sailor should have not made.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#191986 09/25/09 10:26 AM 09/25/09 10:26 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
old hand
|
old hand
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807 Hillsborough, NC USA | Forcing my agreement to abide by a set of rules that I can't assure myself that my insurance company will also agree with as a precondition to play is a problem. It would make no sense whatsoever to "play the game" by one set of rules, and assess liability for damages under a different set. When you compete, you agree that the RRS will apply. If your insurance carrier won't cover you under those conditions, find another carrier. I am squeezed in the middle by this prescription and the existing US legal system and SOB's in the insurance industry (not to mention my own role in the screw up)! Imagine how bad it would be if the RRS applied to racing, and the COLREGS applied for damages. You'd have two conflicting sets of rules governing right-of-way. Every time boats met, you'd have to choose between liability and disqualification. I would eliminate the problem with a change in the RR rules that IF a serious collision occurs on the race course. BOTH boats are DSQed. Then the two parties can take it to their insurance and settle it with professionals. This is a model familiar to everyone with car insurance. That would be analogous to police ticketing every car involved in a collision. While it is possible for multiple boats (even all boats) involved in a collision to be disqualified, I don't think it makes sense to do so automatically. If a faster boat than yours comes up from behind and rams you (despite your best efforts to get away), do you really believe you should be disqualified? Now, I could pay my deductible and have the additional burden of "be responsible" for the other guys' out of pocket expenses if he perceives that I am responsible under the RR of sailing "responsiblity" standard. You have that "burden" anyway. Sports are not like driving. There is no law that requires "no-fault" insurance for sailing like there is for driving. There's going to be some rules involved (the RRS, or something else) and there will be liability for damages accordingly. I'm glad that US Sailing makes it clear that the RRS are those rules. Regards, Eric | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: Jake]
#191988 09/25/09 10:31 AM 09/25/09 10:31 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | What? So a guy that's winning a regatta gets his boat trashed by someone not paying attention and he has to eat a DSQ? Ouch... Well that was a totally dumb idea. It would really change the game. Still on the problem of Responsibility and Insurance. Take a windward leeward collision. Windward with spin can't see leeward until it is too late.... Leeward is not paying attention and does not see windward until it's too late to avoid collision. Everyone has a story about what the other guy did or did not do to avoid the collision. Or take a down wind port starboard cross where Port says... I thought I could make it... but was wrong and Starboard clipped my rudders BUT he could have headed up and avoided the collision... Starboard. I thought he would make it and held my course... He did not make it and I could not avoid his rudders... it was a puff!. Windward is tossed. The protest committee decides that Both sailors failed to keep a proper lookout and avoid the collision. Port is tossed, Again, the Protest committee decides that Both sailors failed to avoid a collision and starboard is tossed. So, taking the prescription as is. Doing your best to get the facts found to be as accurate as possible and separated from opinion at the PC hearing. I am the burdened boat in both protests. Is my "responsibility" complete after the Insurance company takes all of the information and says... We decide to pay x% and apportions blame equally or whatever. Am I just unreasonable about the word "Responsible"In other words... so long as I have liability insurance, I am responsible. I have no problems after the insurance company resolves the claim?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: David Ingram]
#194795 10/28/09 11:31 AM 10/28/09 11:31 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram OP
Carpal Tunnel
|
OP
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | It's this weekend. If you're not doing the Cat Caper get yourself to Nigels. The kids are planning some kind of drinking game... if you're into that.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: David Ingram]
#194825 10/28/09 03:32 PM 10/28/09 03:32 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | no food or drink Sat. unless you are in costume!
Jake Kohl | | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: ThunderMuffin]
#194841 10/28/09 04:32 PM 10/28/09 04:32 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | You could pull of a Frankenstein without much effort... you even take batteries.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: USSailing Area D North Qualifier
[Re: John Williams]
#194857 10/28/09 06:37 PM 10/28/09 06:37 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
|
Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | You could pull of a Frankenstein without much effort... you even take batteries. No kiddin...two green bolts, some glue, and you're there dude!
Jake Kohl | | |
|
0 registered members (),
314
guests, and 91
spiders. | Key: Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod | | Forums26 Topics22,405 Posts267,056 Members8,150 | Most Online2,167 Dec 19th, 2022 | | |