[b]From "Waves without Rick" topic, posted by Rick White. I feel this info is really important because we all have a "how I got started story", Rick's is especially relevant because of the impact he's had on the Wave....[/i]

I first started racing in the largest, most active class of cats in the USA.., the Shark Catamaran. My buddy and I picked up the boat at the backyard dealer, who asked if we wanted to race with their Shark Fleet at Mentor Harbor YC, in Mentor, OHIO that weekend. We, of course, did.
We were DEAD LAST.
Had a great time, however, and vowed to get better. I followed around the Wells Family (father, Bill, daughters Mary and Betty), for two years and always kept my eye on how and why they did things. Then at the keg kept asking questions.
In a little over a year, they won the NAs and I took 3rd with my son, Dave (who is a top sailor in the Nacra 6.0 and Wave).
No, I did not quit just because I was last, and probably didn't have the best equipment. I was last because this was all new to me, and I had a helluva lot to learn.

Mark, sorry you don't see us anywhere near you, but Waves are thriving, with new fleets popping up all over the place. And once in the class, it seems sailors really fall in love with the boat and the class.

Who makes it up? Well, a good many of the sailors were once teams on Hobie 16, 18, 20, Prindles of all sorts. Now the guy and gal each have their own boat and race against each other.., and both usually with a lot of success.
Lots of older people: We started out with the Masters at age 55, but most of the fleet was there or better, so we raised it to 60 and are looking to go to 65.
We have made tremendous attempts at getting youth involved, as it is a great training boat. We cannot claim much success along that line, however.

Again, IWCA is the ONLY ACTIVE Wave class. We are not dividing anyone. Anyone from HCA is welcome with open arms. Unfortunately, that feeling is not reciprocal and there is where this thread began.

[i]Mimi Appel's reply....[/b]

First, Happy Thanksgiving to one and all.

Second, I can't believe the number of posts on this thread.

Third, I can't wait to race against you guys and gales.

<< Unfortunately, that feeling is not reciprocal>>
There's been lots of miscommunication. How can we fix it? Where do we start?


How about a new thread....Wave of the Future.

Mimi Appel

<< Unfortunately, that feeling is not reciprocal>>
There's been lots of miscommunication. How can we fix it? Where do we start?

I'll start with some history... It has some truth to it, but I've been known to not let the facts get in the way of a good story. (read that as humor)

It was during the Hobie 18SX Nationals in Erie, PA and I was pregnant with my now 20 year old daughter. I had a brief discussion between Paul Ulibarri and Kim Kimlicka about what we felt would be the perfect kid boat. I was all about a simple BOOMLESS rig; never dreamed it would happen.

I've been reading all the hours of posts, so I know this is important to lots of people....so where do we start????

I want to race against everyone. Where do I have to travel to???
I would like all Waves to come to Madcatter (May 2010, Syracuse, NY)
How can we make that happen?

What are the biggest boat difference issues????
Rudders
Sails

Loose nuts on the tiller excluded.

Mimi

HI Mimi,
thanks for starting a new thread on the subject.
It would be really neat to get the Waves to the Madcatter.., a great regatta that has been ongoing forever it seems.
But, and yes there is always a but, I know that the upstate NY Hobie folks are staunchly Hobie. Meaning, the IWCA Waves would not be eligible to sail there, similarly to the Mega, because we would comply with the IHCA Rules.

What the Wave Class has done over the years to build local fleets is to move the North American Championships around to different locations, i.e., the NAs have been at Sandy Hook, Put-in-Bay, Duck, Melbourne, Lake Eustis, Pensacola Beach, etc.
And even if a fleet is not going to host the NAs, we have special area championships, i.e., Indy has the Midwest Championships, PIB has the N. Coast Championships, Sandy Hook has the East Coast Champs, Duck has the Atlantic Coast Championship, etc.
This does seem to bring the boats out. This past summer at PIB we held the N. Coast and had 19 boats in attendance, the biggest fleet at the I-LYA Bay Week Regatta.
And Gosh! It would surely be nice if the Upstate NY developed a fleet we could add to our roster of major events.

And, hopefully, we can get you and a bunch of other Wavers to come to PIB this coming August.

The past two years, however, the class has been neglectful in carrying through on the National Series Championships. You can read all about it by going to our website at www.waveclass.org but basically it encourages folks to attend as many of these area championships as possible. The more you attend, the better your chances of winning the National Series Championship.
Got to get that going again this coming year of 2010.

Again, congrats on kickin' butt at the Mega.
Rick

Hey Rick,

Thanks for the congrats, very cool.

<<I know that the upstate NY Hobie folks are staunchly Hobie. Meaning, the IWCA Waves would not be eligible to sail there, similarly to the Mega, because we would comply with the IHCA Rules.>>


Fleet 204 has enjoyed 33 years of OD Hobie racing, I'm proud to be a part of that. The Korzs (Korzeniewski, my maiden name) were part of the first 5 boats that were awarded our Fleet charter in the 70's from the World Hobie Class Association. I remember the Buffalo regatta used to have to limit the number of boats to 200, if you didn't pre-register, you didn't get in:< Those were the days, my friend!

Jump to 2009... Attendance is down everywhere, Madcatter included, but people still come from all over (read Puerto Ricans with massive amounts of rum) to race on the sometimes snowy, usually cold Oneida Lake. The race is the vehicle that brings a bunch of crazy sailors together.

Within our Fleet, there are rules for racing, just as there are rules for Fleet parties. Newbies learn quickly that a dish to pass, or a bottle to share is not only good manners, but an unwritten requirement, everyone brings something to the table. The same is true of the boats we prefer; we all follow the same rules, OD Hobies make it easy to focus less on the boats and more on the party. Its all part of that ‘keep it simple’ stuff, it sometimes come off as pretentious, but no harm is meant.

Now back to the main point, how do we come together to race Waves? How can we simplify the rules so everyone brings a dish they can be proud of? I know this analogy is kind of out there, but it’s what I’m bringing to the table this Thanksgiving weekend.

Comments, suggestions????

I think the biggest difference is the sail. I'm pretty sure that all of us IWCA folks have a stock sail or could get one. I am willing to race with my stock sail at a Hobie class regatta.

If we can just iron out the rudder issue I think we are there. Keep in mind that we are only asking for the same consideration that the other Hobies have...those same ones that make up your existing racers.

I just don't want to sail in circles with warped rudders. I can adapt to the stock sail. If HCA-NA can get this done, then I thick the gap is very small, it it exists at all.

Yea, I have been thinking about the rudder thing for a while and I think I am going to ask for a clarification from IHCA. Seems only fair.

IWCA's policy is that Waves can use any catamaran rudders that have been manufactured by Hobie Cat Company, past, present or future, regardless of material. (I'm assuming that all the Hobie rudders are the same shape and size.)
I don't know whether that policy is actually written in the class rules, but that is what everybody adheres to.

Let's use a analogy/example to talk about human nature and Waves ....

First, when the "Wave" was introduced, (let's say "born") by Hobie Cat Co., it was also announced at the same time it would not be a "racing class" and it wouldn't be supported by Hobie Cat Co. or the HCA-NA for racing.

So basically Hobie Cat Co. abandoned the Wave as a "racing class" ...... but some good people stepped forward and adopted the Wave and through their efforts raised the Wave from birth .... investing their time and efforts including alot of love .... and low and behold they created a "racing class" ......

And now many years later what happens????? The origonal "birth parents" show up and tell the adoptive parents .... "we're back, and we'll take over, all you have to do is follow our rules ....."

Most adoptee's while happy to meet their "birth parents" will tell you ... "my adoptive parents are my real parents" ... "while my birth parents gave me life, they did not raise me."

So Hobie Cat Co and the HCA-NA are surprised by the reaction of the IWCA and it's sailors???? It's a demonstrion of basic human nature. And until the HCA-NA and the Hobie Cat Co reconizes what they did wrong in the past, the mistakes they made and make corrections ... the adoptive Wave parents will not accept the birth parents re-appearence and demands to make the rules .... it's basic human nature .....

So I predict that the harder the HCA-NA and Hobie Cat Co push the IWCA and it's associated sailors to follow the "Hobie rules"... the less success they will have. What Hobie Cat and the HCA-NA have to ask themselves is ... who created the Wave Racing Class??? Who put all the work into the class??? And most importantly .... Has Hobie Cat Co. and the HCA-NA EARNED the right to set the rules for Wave Class racing. Policies put in place many years ago towards the Wave are coming back to haunt the HCA-NA and the Hobie Cat Co. and just by saying that all is forgiven if the IWCA would just now follow "Hobie Rules" will continue to fall on deaf ears.

And personally as A HCA-NA member ... I DO NOT believe we have .... the IWCA has!!!! So if we want them to come and play at our events ... the IWCA rules should be used ....

Simple basic human nature ....

Harry Murphey
TheMightyHobie18/#9458, Fleet54/Div11

Actually I think that HCA-NA gets the picture and always has. The hard part for HCA-NA is getting the IHCA and Hobie Cat company on board.

Bob,

Yes, I do agree there are SOME of the HCA-NA members get the picture .... but there are enough HCA-NA members who still DO Not get the picture and have a fantasy of returning to the halcyon days of "Hobiedom", blindly dancing to the Hobie Cat Co's tune.

And the IHCA ..... they have no clue that the Hobie ship is floundering and sinking .... they will not reconize it until the ship is completely submerged ... flooded ... and laying on the bottom with the fishes ....

Harry

Mostly true Harry but I prefer to think of it as finding a new steady-state instead of floundering and sinking.
We are fortunate that the guys at the top in the HCA-NA are the ones who appear to get the picture. There is lots of talk about these kinds of things lately and even some action in the works. There are no silver bullets but I think there is the potential for our organization to re-calibrate nicely. We are at a turning point right now and only time will tell if it’s handled correctly.

Now let's let the Wave sailors have their thread back.
I'm going sailing.

Thanks for your support Bob. We don't have any need to discuss this further until you (HCA-NA) work out your part (or don't).

We (IWCA) have plenty of big events coming up and more on the horizon. We are goin' sailin' too!

Now we're getting somewhere!!!!

While nothing is "easy" when it comes to actually persuading a change to happen with the IHCA rules (and that's a major understatement), we should be able to make the rudder rule change happen over the winter. If we play it right, this could work out to help lots of the Hobie classes, not just the Wave (per Matt B's post in another thread).

So, the real question that remains is this: If HCA puts the effort into making the rudder rule change, but keeps the sail rule in place, will the IWCA sailors join Jack in accepting this as a good-faith effort and come to HCA events? The Hobie-supplied sail has been reported to now be of equal quality and performance, and are readily available, so unless there's a hidden agenda, 2010 should be an excellent year of Wave attendance for IWCA sailors with HCC sails at HCA events.

Looking forward to running some trapezoids for you.

Mike

Mike, our class rules have a class course already. We do not use a trapezoid, just simply a triangle, windward - leeward.
The one point of sail ALL Wave folks hate is the dreaded and boring downwind leg (in this boat tacking downwind does not pay -- you just head for the mark). So, we try to set up the courses so we have two beats, two reaches and one downwind leg. Most folks like the course.

I think our class mentality is closer to what Harry Murphy said -- I don't think so. Most of the fleet will NOT sail with a Hobie made sail. And while a Hobie sail won the Nationals last year (my daughter-in-law), and have won quite a few of them, I personally like to look up and see a sail that is pretty. Probably about the same speed, but it looks like a sail.
I believe Patrick Green voiced the same thought, as would almost the entire active sailors in our fleet.

So, I don't think HCA would be offering any bargain. What would IWCA gain by compromising anything? We already have a very active class. HCA has NO class.
Sort of like the tail wagging the dog, don't you think?

Other items not discussed in HCA working with us:
*What about this minimum weight issue? We do not have one, and don't want to have one.
*Trampolines made by after market suppliers? Almost all of them are from non-Hobie manufacturers.
*Any other items? How about the mainsheet. Nope, most are not using Hobie supplied line (and I doubt many of the H16 class are either). Most are using Salsa, a great mainsheet for any boat that is light, won't knot or kink, goes throught the blocks with ease, and the list goes on.

So, you see HCA is very far away from what we are doing. The easy solution is if a fleet, Hobie or otherwise, wants to develop and active Wave Fleet, they should work with us under our rules and we can grow together. For example, I am sure there are a bunch of us that would show up in Rochester/Syracuse area if we were allowed to sail under our rules. Otherwise, we have a ton of regattas already on our schedules.
What the heck, the local fleets can bend a bit, can't they? HCA is asking to practically abandon OUR rules to comply.

I don't think that is going to happen.
Rick

Hidden agenda??? What could that conceivably be?

Hi Rick. By trapeziod, I meant, any course that makes you happy, and can safely co-exist within a larger Hobie event on a single racing circle. There was some discussion here earlier in the year about using some modified trapezoids to help manage your desires and maintain safety on the course with Tigers, etc. I’d just be thrilled to see 20 Waves actually show up, we can manage the racing from there.

Also, the sheets aren’t a problem. Sheets have very few restrictions in the IHCA rules (for Waves, they just can't be tapered, and can't contain wire).

Mary, "hidden agenda" was probably not the right phrase, but Rick's reply is basically what I was referring to.

If you don't HAVE to compromise, why did you ask to work together with us to come to HavaMega? Isn't getting everyone together the real goal? Or is it really, let's try to force HCA to adopt IWCA rules?

As you know, the rules regarding sails and tramps are an extremely difficult thing to change. This is just a core factor of what makes the Hobie class what it is. We actually had the momentum to move forward with this for you at the end of 2008 when HCA voted to allow the IWCA equipment at HavaMega. Naturally, there was a ton of resistance initially, but the overwhelming feeling was that we should allow it on a provisional basis to see if it would have a positive impact on the turnout.

Now, you can't realistically expect IHCA to go along with 100% of the changes that you are asking for, at least not overnight. Otherwise, you probably would never have needed to start IWCA.

Especially after the IWCA sailors elected to boycot HavaMega, if you're going to say, change this, change that, but if you don't get it all in right now, we're not coming anyway, I think you know what the expected outcome will be. As I said, there was a lot of momentum at the beginning of the year, but when the rules were changed (by the OA, not the voting members of the HCA), and you CHOSE to stay home, that also sent a message.

If your goal is to work with us, we can probably get a lot of this done (min weight, rudders, possibly the tramps and sails), if nothing else, on a probationary basis. If that is successful (IE, YOU SHOW UP), we can probably get those rule changes to be permanent.

So you ask, what do we (IWCA) gain? That’s exactly the same question being asked in the HCA. No one is interested in changing the core of what makes the Hobie class what it is, if there won’t be some actual turnout for our efforts.

At the end of the day, we’re going to have to compromise (on BOTH sides) for this to be a successful marriage of HCA and IWCA. I don’t think it’s realistic or fair for either side to be militant to the bitter end over this.

Mike

I want to make it very clear that I speak only for myself.

If you get the rudder issue resolved, I will come to Hobie sanctioned regattas that feature Waves that are within my range.

Many (perhaps most) IWCA racers' boats are probably not as convertable as mine is. I have a stock tramp and like it.

Like Mike says, HCA needs to get the rudder rule done regardless of the Wave issue. I certainly wouldn't expect you to accept the IWCA rules where they go against Hobie standard doctrine with the other classes. Nor should HCA expect the IWCA to make ANY concessions. This isn't about getting more Waves to IWCA events...they already are eligible...ALL OF THEM.

This is only about how badly HCA wants more Waves at their events.

We did NOT ask to come to the Mega. We were ASKED and under the condition it would be IWCA Rules.
I am not asking HCA to do anything. If you want to have good participation from the ONLY Wave Class that is ACTIVE, you would need to change to allow IWCA boats to sail. I have already pointed out the list of differences.
If that can't be done, I doubt you will see many Waves at those regattas.


We started the IWCA because no one else was interested, including HCC, NAHCA, and IHCA. We were. And we have developed it on our own, by sailors that sail the boat, by sailors that know what is good for the class and what is not.
As I have pointed out in the past, as have Murphy and many others, we did NOT want to have rules handed down to us by people that knew nothing about the boat. I went through that with the Hobie 18 and now it is a dead class. We do not want to see another dead class.


We never asked anyone to change anything. We were invited on the basis we could sail by our rules. When notified that we could not, we declined to attend. Simple as that. Yep, it sent a message alright, and it was pretty simple. I really don't understand where you are getting this stuff that we are trying to tell HCA what to do.
All we are saying is, if you want Waves to attend regattas (I don't care who the hosting party is, Hobie, Laser, Sunfish, et al) we need to be invited to sail as we sail in our many events already established.
It is obviously heading for moot point -- we already have a great many regattas and may not have room for more on our schedule.

Nor are we asking to change the core of HCA. So, from what I am gathering by your post, HCA is willing to make a couple small changes and we should jump all over it, totally forgetting who we are and what we have done? I doubt it.
Again, we ask for nothing. If you want us to attend any regatta, just locally amend the rules to allow the IWCA Wave Class.


IWCA is not interested in a marriage. We have not even been kissed at this point, leave alone wooed. Who came up with this idea that we wanted to merge, or get married? We are what we are.., fat, dumb and happy.., and thriving.

Sorry if this sounds a little strong, but we have to stop beating around the bush. When two subjects come to the bargaining table, both must have something to offer. At this point IWCA is the only one with any chips.

I respect your honesty, Rick.

IHCA policies, and (per RRS) class rules, can't be "locally amended" without jumping through all sorts of hoops.

I was really under the impression that it was IWCA that wanted this just as much as HCA. Thank you for correcting that assumption.

Mike