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latest on the America's Cup #199691
12/30/09 10:16 AM
12/30/09 10:16 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

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South Carolina
Latest on the America’s Cup:

Location:
The location of the event was hotly contested. The original court judgment said that SNG/Alinghi had to give GGYC/BMWO 6 months notice on the venue. Which they did when they selected RAK in the middle east. GGYC/BMWO contested with the courts that RAK was not a DoG (Deed of Gift) legal venue because it was in the northern hemisphere and the event was to take place in February (the DoG restricts racing during the winter months in the northern hemisphere or southern hemisphere). Alinghi contested that the wording of the previous ruling gave them the option of selecting “Anywhere”. The courts ruled in favor of GGYC/BMWO and put the event in Valencia, Spain (a provision also provided for in the previous ruling). SNG/Alinghi appealed and the appeals court upheld the previous ruling – so Valencia it is.

Both teams have packed up their boats an their on the way to Spain. BOR-90 (soon to be “USA”) should arrive sometime between Jan 4 and 5. We’re not really sure where Alinghi’s catamaran is at the moment or when it will arrive. It does appear that it was loaded up on a cargo ship sometime recently though.

Date:
Feb 8th is the court mandated first race date. There have been many talks with the government of Valencia and Spain about delaying the match to take place on the 12th so it falls on a weekend and extending the racing to a best of 7 race series instead of a best of 3 that the DoG stipulates (if both sides agree, they can make the racing up anyway they want…if they don’t agree, it goes back to the best of 3 provided in the DoG). They had agreement, they didn’t have agreement, they had agreement, and now it appears they don’t again so we’re back to a best of three series that starts on Feb. 8th. The Spanish government is getting a little perturbed at the lack of agreement around the event and the delays in getting the details nailed down stand a significant chance of meaning there will not be any TV coverage of the event.

Contested Details:
Constructed in Country (CiC). The DoG has a provision that the “yachts or vessels” must be Constructed in Country. Among other things, BMWO has complained to Alinghi that their sails are known to have come from the only place in the world that produces 3DL sails – the North Sails facility in Minden, Nevada. Alinghi has come back with a couple of confusing statements on the matter…first, they said that they are compliant and all their sails are “constructed” in Switzerland (sort of a chicken / egg situation here: the sails or sail panels are literally molded with specific fabric orientations in a large facility in Nevada, USA – the panels were then seamed and had fittings attached in Switzerland…does this constitute “constructed” or “assembled”?). BMWO countered with information they know that some sails from Nevada went straight to RAK (where Alinghi has been training) and never touched Swiss soil. Alinghi then countered contending that that the sails aren’t properly part of “a yacht” therefore they don’t have to be constructed in country. There are additional items that BMWO contest that were not CiC on the yacht – one item is the new longer spine/spar that Alinghi assembled to the boat while in RAK. The spine was apparently molded in Switzerland but placed on the boat in RAK. Conceivably, this puts Alinghi in a bind…if assembling the spine to the boat in RAK is not “constructing” in RAK, then assembling the sails in Switzerland isn’t “constructing” in Switzerland either…one or the other is wrong and they have a problem. Lastly, during the latest debacle where Alinghi contended that the Length on Load waterline measurement should now include rudders (that the court disallowed) they submitted an affidavit from one of their lead designers stating that all parts required to actively sail a yacht or vessel constitute a “yacht”….so their statement that sails are part of a “yacht” has problems. Also of note, as per the DoG, SNG/Alinghi doesn’t have to identify the yacht with which they will defend the cup until the first day of racing – they have also been saying that BMWO can’t possibly bring up any CiC complaints at this time because they don’t even know what boat they will be racing….which is a bit of a silly statement – as if they built their 115’ catamaran just to fake them out.

Boat Parking:
Alinghi has inserted into the NOR for the event that all boats are to park in the Darsena Harbor (America’s Cup Harbor). However, the harbor entrance is a bit curvy and there is not enough room for BOR-90, with its giant wing, to swing 360 degrees on a mooring. Entering the harbor and storing in the harbor with the wing will be potentially dangerous to people and certainly to BOR-90 should it find itself at a wrong angle and unable to orient properly (capsize). BMWO has long ago made provisions to setup their base at an unutilized industrial harbor next door to the Darsena harbor (and in walking distance)…conceivably, Alinghi is attempting to DSQ BMWO for not setting up shop in Darsena.

International Jury:
The international Jury for the event was named on Dec. 6th (the court stipulated a Dec. 4th deadline for the Jury to be inplace). Although they have been named, their contracts have not been finalized by SNG/Alinghi (does this constitute “in place”?). These contracts provide salaries and, most importantly, the indemnity “hold harmless” agreements that any judge worth a nickel would want in place before touching this situation with these power players. The Jury can help to decide many of these issues and there are several other significant issues BMWO has with the NOR that they are hoping the IJ will clear up. With Alinghi holding up the Jury, BMWO may not have a choice but to go back to the New York Court system to get Alinghi to get the Jury in place and/or some of these other issues resolved.

BMWO and Alinghi are supposed to sit down and discuss the Jury, CiC, and Parking issues soon…they’ve been firing two series of letters back and forth recently with some stiff language but trying to find a date and location to discuss. Meanwhile, Spain is impatiently tapping it’s foot hoping to make the event into a financial success.

Attached Files
america_image.jpg (605 downloads)

Jake Kohl
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake] #199695
12/30/09 11:08 AM
12/30/09 11:08 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
addict
flumpmaster  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
Thanks for the summary Jake. You have saved me from dipping my feet in the cess pool of AC Anarchy to stay current on the cup. I look forward to a good, fair fight between the titans in February. Hopefully 7 races with a win for Alinghi!

Chris.


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: flumpmaster] #199706
12/30/09 01:23 PM
12/30/09 01:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I'm certainly don't feel the same way about Alinghi winning! I find them very largely responsible for a lot of very one-sided dealing in their favor - They are responsible for the whole non-negotiating mess that all of this is in right now due to an exceptionally stubborn position and terribly lopsided (and wrong) interpretations of the Deed of Gift (that has recently started to cost them dearly). If they win again, EB will not make the mistake of choosing an illegitimate "challenger" but will find a legitimate one that will do as he wishes and let him turn the event into a seriously lopsided affair. Ellison, on the other hand, appears to have a more fair vision of the America's Cup future in continuation with the success that was had with the last version (AC32). I'm strongly cheering for GGYC/BMWO! They are the American contingent anyway and how can you go against "Mothra" the great wing of destruction!?

[Linked Image]


Jake Kohl
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake] #199713
12/30/09 03:11 PM
12/30/09 03:11 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
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Naples, FL
I still think they should call it the "america's cup deathmatch" That will bring in the wrestling crowd (especially if you add "modified" young vixens to the broadcast booth)


Jay

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: waterbug_wpb] #199718
12/30/09 03:53 PM
12/30/09 03:53 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
**** all the way to the starting line, and beyond..

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake] #199731
12/30/09 09:22 PM
12/30/09 09:22 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



Originally Posted by Jake
I'm certainly don't feel the same way about Alinghi winning! I find them very largely responsible for a lot of very one-sided dealing in their favor - They are responsible for the whole non-negotiating mess that all of this is in right now due to an exceptionally stubborn position and terribly lopsided (and wrong) interpretations of the Deed of Gift (that has recently started to cost them dearly). If they win again, EB will not make the mistake of choosing an illegitimate "challenger" but will find a legitimate one that will do as he wishes and let him turn the event into a seriously lopsided affair. Ellison, on the other hand, appears to have a more fair vision of the America's Cup future in continuation with the success that was had with the last version (AC32). I'm strongly cheering for GGYC/BMWO! They are the American contingent anyway and how can you go against "Mothra" the great wing of destruction!?

[Linked Image]


Thanks for all the updates. your info turned me from completely unknowing/uninterested to very interested and excited by the boats.

From all you have posted (with opinion), i agree Alinghi seems to be very stubborn, full of legal positioning and is the root of evil, (and maybe the cause of global warming) but after the first 20 seconds of video of their catamaran, all was forgiven and i just want to see it sail (AND WIN)

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ] #199733
12/30/09 09:32 PM
12/30/09 09:32 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
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T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
<******** letter that Alinghi publishes, they just dig that hole deeper and deeper.

Even if the boats were reversed, and truly BMWO's tri wasn't cooler than the Alinghi piece-of-****-held-together-by-strings-catamaran, I would still wish them humiliating failure in every aspect of their lives.

BOR 90:


Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #199735
12/30/09 10:20 PM
12/30/09 10:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
David Parker Offline
old hand
David Parker  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 890
Dunedin Causeway, FL
I've watched with great interest and awe the videos of these giants sailing alone in a huge open area. Unless I'm wrong, neither of these boats have ever been raced near another boat of similar size or speed. I'm really looking forward to seeing them jockeying for position on a start line. If you've watched AC monohull starts before you know the race is often decided at or even before the start during a wild dance of crazy tacks, jibes, and near misses. If they try that same monohull madness with these beasts I think we'll see regatta ending collisions before they ever start.

Let the wild rumpus start!

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #199739
12/30/09 10:29 PM
12/30/09 10:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
flumpmaster Offline
addict
flumpmaster  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 606
League City, TX
Originally Posted by Undecided

I think if all you guys get about this whole fiasco is from Jake's posts (which are excellent indeed) then you really don't understand the visceral HATRED that yankee fanboys of Larry Ellison and BMWO have for Alinghi at the moment.

There, fixed it for ya...

Hop Schweiz!
[Linked Image]


Dave Ingram is my president. tcdyc rules
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: flumpmaster] #199740
12/30/09 11:43 PM
12/30/09 11:43 PM

A
andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
Unregistered
A



both boats are amazing, i love everything i see.. for the first time ever, i have become interested in this event and like Dave .. i can't wait to see them race, i really dont care who wins as i think all this is amazing to see..(and good for our sport in general)

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ] #199742
12/31/09 07:36 AM
12/31/09 07:36 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
veteran
dave mosley  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
DSQ them both and start over or just cancel this whole fiasco and lets sail some cats with big coolers and have a good time....no lawyers allowed, ever.
However, I cant wait to see the starting sequence either. I predict a lawyer will be the bowman just in case they need an interepretation of any of the rules!
Who are the skippers?

Last edited by dave mosley; 12/31/09 07:38 AM. Reason: I failed my special ed spelling class

The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: flumpmaster] #199744
12/31/09 07:52 AM
12/31/09 07:52 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe


Without taking sides I do think the DOG itself is pretty unfair in some instances.

How can it be fair when team USA can make use of the whole USA industrial base where Switserland can make use of only what can be found between their mountains ?

At least allow the Swiss the use of the whole European industrial base/continent for their challenge.

A document such as the DOG does sort of lead to endless litigation; especially with the ego's of billionairs coming into play.

Naturally, claims that state Iran would attack the AC event at RAK is just luney tunes. Maybe one side is more to blame then the other but I don't really feel that either side is exempt from childish behavior.

So lets not lay all the blame at one side.

Personally, I feel both boats are great developments and I would like to see them race over 7 (instead of the meager 3 by DOG)

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #199745
12/31/09 08:45 AM
12/31/09 08:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
If you want to see some more BMWO eye candy, click on the video below and select "HQ"...go full screen. (note: if you click on the video just after clicking play, it will open in a new window where you can make it full screen).



Jake Kohl
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Wouter] #199749
12/31/09 09:12 AM
12/31/09 09:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline OP
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Originally Posted by Wouter


Without taking sides I do think the DOG itself is pretty unfair in some instances.

How can it be fair when team USA can make use of the whole USA industrial base where Switserland can make use of only what can be found between their mountains ?

At least allow the Swiss the use of the whole European industrial base/continent for their challenge.

A document such as the DOG does sort of lead to endless litigation; especially with the ego's of billionairs coming into play.

Naturally, claims that state Iran would attack the AC event at RAK is just luney tunes. Maybe one side is more to blame then the other but I don't really feel that either side is exempt from childish behavior.

So lets not lay all the blame at one side.

Personally, I feel both boats are great developments and I would like to see them race over 7 (instead of the meager 3 by DOG)

Wouter


First - I agree, the Iran card went way overboard...but you do need to understand that Larry Ellison is Jewish and the middle east is a little less than welcoming to Jewish people. In fact, people carrying Israeli passports aren't permitted to enter the United Arab Emirates (where RAK is located). I wouldn't care to go there if I were him...heck, even having an Israeli stamp in my passport caused me a good bit of grief getting into Saudi Arabia several years ago.

However, with regards to the Deed of Gift document, it is a simple document with language that was adequate in the 1800s. It could certainly use some freshening up. However, Alinghi has made several creative interpretations that a native English speaker wouldn't (and that their legal counsel was undoubtedly trying to explain) ... this has cost them in the courts and really dragged this whole affair out. In many ways, the Deed is beautifully simple except for one revision that was made to it back in the 1980's that made an assumption (as did the creators of the deed) that nobody would ever consider shopping the event location. The Deed is actually standing up quite well in court - it's just one side of this affair keeps trying to creatively interpret several definitions within the Deed to their benefit.

As far as Switzerland's ability to build an adequate CiC vessel, understand that Switzerland, as per the DoG, should have never been permitted to challenge for the cup. The cup was intended to be up for challenge by sea fairing nations and limits challengers to those that have a regular regatta on an arm of the sea (presumably on their home waters). Switzerland has no coastline. It was only under mutual consent in AC 31 that Switzerland was allowed to compete when New Zealand gave it very little thought. Neither did the originators of the Deed intend for the venue to be shopped around the globe. The intent was for the event to always take place at the defending club's territorial waters...on the ocean. A great deal of the conundrum we are seeing now is because Bertarelli has been shopping the event around the globe (he has no choice - they have no ocean shoreline) - which really stretches the limits of the DoG and puts several items within it in conflict. Add to that that Alinghi has been trying to overreach their rights and we end up here.



Jake Kohl
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: Jake] #199750
12/31/09 09:50 AM
12/31/09 09:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
dave mosley Offline
veteran
dave mosley  Offline
veteran

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 1,253
Columbia South Carolina, USA
If they can build a nice watch, and a nice pocket knife, then surely they can build a boat smile


The men were amazed, and said, "What kind of a man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?" Matthew 8:27





Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: flumpmaster] #199762
12/31/09 01:58 PM
12/31/09 01:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
Originally Posted by flumpmaster
Originally Posted by Undecided

I think if all you guys get about this whole fiasco is from Jake's posts (which are excellent indeed) then you really don't understand the visceral HATRED that yankee fanboys of Larry Ellison and BMWO have for Alinghi at the moment.

There, fixed it for ya...

Hop Schweiz!
[Linked Image]



Chris,

You are a flamebaiter of the first degree.

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #199768
12/31/09 06:24 PM
12/31/09 06:24 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
addict
HMurphey  Offline
addict

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Does anyone remember Perth Australia .... when the bomb threat was called in ... saying there was a bomb on-board the Aussie boat??? I remember watching the "Aussie coach" boat coming up and hailing the Aussie boat ... by this time they trailed Stars&Stripes and it was offered to have the race stopped to search the boat for a bomb .... and what happened??? ...... they were waved away!!!! With the words "We have started the race ... and will finish this race ....."

What has happened to our sport??? Where is the HONOR ... the SPORTSMANSHIP any more????

Sir Lipton must be rolling over in his grave

Harry Murphey

Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: HMurphey] #199775
12/31/09 08:32 PM
12/31/09 08:32 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
JeffS Offline
veteran
JeffS  Offline
veteran

Joined: May 2006
Posts: 1,383
Kingston SE South Australia
Originally Posted by HMurphey


What has happened to our sport??? Where is the HONOR ... the SPORTSMANSHIP any more????

Sir Lipton must be rolling over in his grave

Harry Murphey


The honor was gone a long time ago that's how the cup was held so long by such a dishonerable club in the first place. Allan Bond only won the cup because he had learnt that it's won in the court room and took better lawyers to the race. The only difference this year is that the lawyers are going before probably during and after the race but it's worth it.


Jeff Southall
Current boats
Nacra 5.8 1703 Animal Scanning Services
Nacra 5.8 1667 Ram Raider
Nacra 18 Square
Arrow 1576
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: ThunderMuffin] #199776
12/31/09 08:51 PM
12/31/09 08:51 PM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
PTP Offline
Carpal Tunnel
PTP  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,921
Michigan
<******** letter that Alinghi publishes, they just dig that hole deeper and deeper.

Even if the boats were reversed, and truly BMWO's tri wasn't cooler than the Alinghi piece-of-****-held-together-by-strings-catamaran, I would still wish them humiliating failure in every aspect of their lives.

BOR 90:


that type of footage does exactly what it was designed to do... gives me the chills! among other things smile

I hope BMW kicks the living CRAP out of those guys.






(disclaimer... I know LE and EB are both probably pieces of ****... but still)
Last edited by PTP; 12/31/09 08:51 PM.
Re: latest on the America's Cup [Re: PTP] #199822
01/02/10 07:18 PM
01/02/10 07:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
Capt_Cardiac Offline
enthusiast
Capt_Cardiac  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Jul 2005
Posts: 267
Ocean Springs, MS
maybe its been mentioned but does anyone know what kind of speed these boats are generating? is this a 15-20-30kt race we are going to see? i know, i know it depends on the wind but does anyone have any details


Capt Cardiac
Ocean Springs Yacht Club
Sailor
Nacra20 - Flight of Ideas #5
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