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Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202759
02/10/10 10:56 AM
02/10/10 10:56 AM
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waynemarlow Offline
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Originally Posted by Smiths_Cat

If you have a free rotating aerodynamically shaped mast, you can minimise the turbulence zones by a fair amount. But on a fixed mast, the turbulence behind the mast is significant. So much that you can say that the rotating must is the key enabler for performance of cats (don't tell the skiff community...)


Cheers,

Klaus


OK then in our low speed setups it would seem the soft sail maybe a winner due to simplicity and weight over aerodynamics. But what about a hybrid mast section of a D shape with two sail baulk rope guides and a twin section of soft sail leading to a single rear section from say half way back in depth. Over rotate the mast ever so slightly and the inner panel length is shortened allowing the inner panel to cdeepen slightly giving an assymetric shape. Has it been tried and are there any merits in the idea.

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Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: DennisMe] #202785
02/10/10 01:52 PM
02/10/10 01:52 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Originally Posted by DennisMe

You say the "drop off" is less for a soft sail, but does that not also imply that max Cl is also lower overall?

It is more like that the soft sail cLmax varies between 1.3 and 1.4, while a wing varies between 0.7 and 1.8.
Originally Posted by DennisMe
Another question: is this Reynolds related lift-boost something one could experience on an old cat like my Nacra 5.2? It would account for some experiences I have had when reaching where the boat picks up a gust and after accellerating all of a sudden the boat starts to pitch-up (where it had been rapidly going bow-down) and takes a sprint with apparently less drag and heeling moment. feels like planing in a skiff or dinghy) but I'm sure that is not it.

As said above the Reynolds effect of a soft sail isn't that strong. Sounds more like a "shifting gear" effect.
Or watch the fore-aft trim of your boat, if the bows go down and the boat accelerate, you was maybe in a stern-dragging trim before?

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: waynemarlow] #202788
02/10/10 02:03 PM
02/10/10 02:03 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
Originally Posted by waynemarlow

OK then in our low speed setups it would seem the soft sail maybe a winner due to simplicity and weight over aerodynamics. But what about a hybrid mast section of a D shape with two sail baulk rope guides and a twin section of soft sail leading to a single rear section from say half way back in depth. Over rotate the mast ever so slightly and the inner panel length is shortened allowing the inner panel to cdeepen slightly giving an assymetric shape. Has it been tried and are there any merits in the idea.

There are some data about such a configuration in Marchajs book about sail performance if I remember right.
It should have slightly less drag as you assume, however with risk of the Reynoldseffect. It is actually the turbulence of the mast which off sets the Reynoldseffect on a soft sail.

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202789
02/10/10 02:27 PM
02/10/10 02:27 PM
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Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
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Naples, FL
My question has more to do with the practical applications of this wing rather than the science behind it....

What is the likelihood that we'd see some iteration of this concept in the racing industry?

What groups would be likely adopters (A-cat, iceboats, etc.) of this technology?

If the weather limitations weren't what they are, what changes would be made to the design to accommodate a wider range of wind/sea conditions?


Jay

Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: waterbug_wpb] #202802
02/10/10 04:07 PM
02/10/10 04:07 PM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Iceboats, landyachts thanks to their high speed. I am not aware of a weather limitation, as long as the wing can free weathervane and is slightly damped to avoid flutter. Maybe large superyachts, where prestige is as important as performance.

Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: waynemarlow] #202840
02/11/10 03:02 AM
02/11/10 03:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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isnt that what a moth rig is in reality? or a wind surfer?

Re: Wing versus sail question for all you aerodynamics buffs [Re: Smiths_Cat] #202841
02/11/10 03:26 AM
02/11/10 03:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
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Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
skiffs are edge of capsize craft. crazy So more important than complete aero efficiency is automatic depowering. Much more so than any cat.. Most skiff classes are over powered..

There have been experiments with wing masts but they only have gained footholds in the lower powered classes.. MG14 and NS 14. The Bethwaite wing mast was successful in Cherubs in the 80s.. But keeping it in good nick was a major PITA.. So much so Bethwaite himself switched to the D mast for his Taser class..

A semi successful carbon wingmast version was used in the "R" class variant of the 12.. Then the R is a limited sail area. (roughly the same as the standard Number 3 rig of a 12).. What they were looking for was extra "sail" in the mast area which is unrestricted. But if you then look at what the "standard" 12 carry.. NO cat comes close in terms of ratios!!

example.. my old 18 had a 300sm meter number 1 kite. Main stick was above around 11 meters over the deck. all on a F18 sized boat.. Power wasnt the issue.. keeping the stick out of the water was!! grin The 12s were far more extreme than my old barge..




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