This discussion would be more productive with more information... Stephen, taking the Falcon as an example and assuming for the sake of discussion a nominal weight of 112kg, what do you believe would be the actual performance impact (say minutes per hour, or equivalent delta Texel) of (a) decreasing the weight to 107kg and (b) increasing weight to your proposed 115kg, all other factors being equal?


Can I suggest that a more relevant question is how much Matt would charge you to produce a boat that is 107kg (or if you like, 3kg under)? (Also note that this question becomes even more interesting when combined with your answer to my question above.) A full carbon boat is an interesting idea but if it comes in way under weight it doesn't really help us understand the relative merits of 107 vs 115.


A fair question, but I think it needs to be answered in the context of some other pieces of information... e.g. how much of the Viper's 130kg is a consequence of the decision to use bigger components like beams and choice of manufacturing methods, what is the actual impact of beam size (and maybe other things) on stiffness and of that stiffness on speed, and compared with say a Falcon, how much of the increased hull weight can be attributed to the size of the hulls vs say materials or construction methods? (BTW your question about the 130kg Viper would still be valid relative to your preferred class weight of 115kg.)

Even if the Viper were a total lump of poo for singlehanded sailing, Brett isn't going tell you that. That'd be like me telling you to get cabinets from someone else.

I am happy to tell you that the Viper sails great as a one up. Its very easy to sail downwind in bigger breeze due to the big volume and you can easily trapeze downwind and feel comfortable pushing the boat.

Upwind you need to depower earlier than you first think, but thats the same with any boat you sail one up.

Oh, I am not being paid to say the above

"Even if" or "only if"

Thanks for your comments Andrew. I'm still hoping to get some insight from inside the designer's head about how they were thinking about singlehanded performance when they made their design decisions. As Karl suggests, that may be an unrealistic hope, but you can only ask.

again all moot..
I suspect Greg has a business agenda. I am guessing he wants a class viable as a SMOD design. If I was in his position that is what I would be logically aiming for. If he produced a F16 killer Viper weighing 90Kg all up.. It would be a Viper SMOD killer..

My suggestion you and macca get together and build your "killer F16"..

I want in on the killer F16 too.

Stewart,

I have never had any intention of building a f16 to the full optimization possible under the class rules.

You may have noticed that my position in all discussions is focussed on promoting fair and quality racing. The simple fact that the class rules allow for such a boat to be built (and it will be markedly quicker) deny's the class the potential for fair racing.

can we just lock this fuggin thread...


I mean, it's like having kids say, "You are it....no, you are it...no I'm not, you are it".

This is just stupid...

Everyone has had some valid points...I mean everyone has, but then those same people just don't care about someone else's view, if they don't agree with it.


Bunch of fuggin babies.....

If YOU give that much **** about the class, then YOU need to get an F16 become a member and decide on how and where it goes...

That's what I did...



So, until you do that, shut the kiss up!

Come on now Mike, you know we can't possibly survive without their -valuable- input...we're just a bunch of punters who need more pro's in the class to straighten us out.

I'd like to see just one of them write a check though...then they can bitch, and vote for a change. I've yet to hear a single F16 boat owner bitch.

And why are they even considering a F16 when the F18's are so much faster, even though they are heavier and have so much better rules that make their racing so much -more fair-? I think they should just stay on the F18, where their better rules provide much more fair racing, obviously.

Thnaks Marcus, I don't spend much time there as this seems to be the place where most of the the F16 discussion happens. Perhaps more goes on there in the private forums which I can not view, but the open seems fairly inactive nearly a repeat of what happens here.

[
5 kg could mean a boat length or 2 on each downwind leg for example. The boat has to push an extra 5 liters of water out the way. Each gust the lighter boat will accelerate that little bit quicker, run just that little bit deaper. Around the course by yourself it would not make much difference. In a sizable fleet a few boat lengths could mean places and mean a greater difference in time over the course of the race. Racing in a big fleet you will notice that a boat that gains even 1/3 boat length on you can spit you out the back and add to even more of a loss as you are forced to gain clear air.


That is what I thought I asked. How much would Matt charge for a full Carbon Falcon over a standard boat. And Marcus, how much would you charge for a full Carbon Blade? I do not want a boat that is way underweight, but perhaps a few kg under. The weight saved by using Carbon can be used to build stiffer beams or beam mounts. Take the weight from aloft and put it down low and close to the center of effort, reducing the pitching of the boat.



Yes Viper will still be overweight and the same argument would be valid, however Greg has chosen to build his boat at 130kg and is quiet heavier then the average F16. I have only seen pictures of the Falcon. I have sailed the Blade and seen the Viper and know the hulls and beams are MUCH bigger on the Viper then the Blade. Obviously the added stiffness and hull volume allows for the Viper to push an extra 20 odd litres of water out the way and still keep up. The weight is a handicap for the boat, but these other factors out weigh it. Put the Viper on a diet whilst maintain platform rigitity and it will be quicker again. Quiet a bit so.

Weather the class does or does not choose to raise the min weight, just restrict the use of carbon in all but the foils. If a company then builds a boat like a Viper and chooses to increase the hull volume or platform stiffness at the expense of weight, then it is their decision. As long as they don’t build an all carbon boat down to weight and force the class into an arms race.

IMO, a lighter boat can be built using standard fiberglass, i.e, down to the minimum class weight, and still be just as strong. This would drive the boat cost up, however, as the manufacturer's would have to have better quality control methods. I am opposed to banning Carbon outright; Carbon boats last longer and remain stiffer for a longer period of time. Of course, the current F16 build quality is pretty high and the platforms I've seen and sailed on (Blade and Viper) were very stiff, so it may be in the classes best interest to ban carbon fiber in an effort to keep costs low.

Also, many manufacturers are building slightly above class weight, allowing owners to upgrade to a carbon fiber mast and not have to add corrector weights. This is definitely not the norm in other classes (A cats, Int. 505 etc.), where the boats are built underweight by several kg's, corrector weights added and removed by owners over time when rigs change, rigging changes, and moisture is absorbed into the hull.

Since 5g can make this much of an impact, does that mean that you are close to minimum crew weight as possible?


On a Tornado, there is no minimum crew weight...correct?

Does that mean you have really small crews so they can be that much faster on the race course? Do you make sure you have the least amount of body fat as possible without hampering your performance? Does your crew do the same thing?

Let's talk about F18's...They do have a minimum crew weight. Are the top racers as close to minimum weight as possible? Or are the top crews in varying weights such as 5kilos(~11lbs).
With that thought, with the top crews in varying weights, that means the Top crews should get the tops spots according to their crew weights. Does that happen in the F18's? Or do the crew weights NOT matter and a lot of the winning spots depends on who has done the CREW work?
Here's another example...

What is the primary driving force when you are going downwind with a spinnaker? The spinnaker, correct? You get some driving force off of the Main and Jib, but it's not enough...

So, with that being said and the weight thing being so performance enhancing or detrimental that a singlehanded crew on an F16 going downwind should DESTROY the F16 crew being double handed...is that correct? I mean, everytime I've seen a singlehanded crew go up against a doublehanded crew, it's pretty much equal...I don't see the singlehanded just pull away like a scolded dog. They should, correct, that's ONE LESS BODY, much more than 5kilos?

Or does it happen to be the DRIVER and THE CREW WORK?

Answer me that one!

If this 5g's makes that much of a difference, then that means as soon as I see two 75lb midgets show up to a regatta, that the race committe needs to go ahead and hand them the trophies? I mean, heck 150lbs.....against other crews of 250-350, they are obviously going to win it, correct?


I'm not trying to pick on you, you just happen to have a statement about 5kilos there...

YES, I understand that weight DOES make a DIFFERENCE, but with so many other FACTORS that comes into play, WEIGHT is least of my worries and should be the same with a lot of you guys and gals. Especially when it comes to the better hull design's and using a spinnaker going downwind...That HAS been proven. If some of you care about weight that much, then you need to put down the burger, fries, and beer and eat a salad and drink some water.

Mike

The F18 class does have a very elaborate crew weight system that involves 2 different sail plan sizes and carrying additional lead if the team is really light. I would have to say that the F18 class is the poster child of removing weight as a variable in competition. Makes a lot of sense why they are the most vocal about trying to get all of the F16s to weigh the same. F16s & F18s are at the two ends of the spectrum on which is best for it's class. F16s & F18s are not the same in many ways. In my sailing region, the F18 is heavy and the N20 prevails as the big 2 hander. Each class has their own niche as they currently stand. I for one resent any notion that the F16 is the feeder or little sibling to the F18. That only encourages some F18 sailors to impose their doctrine on our class as though it is a mistake not to.

If the F16 class was as tight as the F18 class regarding eliminating as many variables as possible, we would not be a class of 1 & 2 up teams competing together which I believe is an attractive aspect to our class.

For those that can't handle it, you don't have to sail an F16. The sun will still rise tomorrow. Oh.....the F16 class will still be strong also.

Kris,
I love those words of wisdom.
Regards,
Phill

Me too.

Mike, we raced our F18 at 186 kg initially and it hurt, particularly on the downwinds. We got our weight down to 165kg for the Worlds but still suffered against the lighter crews. We were heavy weights on the Tornado (165kg) and it hurt us there to. Every boat has an ideal crew weight. The F18 would be between 150 and 155kg, the Tornado 140 to 150 and the F16, I have not spent much time on but I believe it would be around the 140kg mark.

Additional boat weigh is dead weight and serves no great purpose. Additional crew weight carries a lot better but still hurts. If the boat is too heavy, put it on a diet. If the crew are too heavy, then put yourselves on a diet..... then work on your skill level. But make the racing about the crews, not the boats.

humm.

Wouter

Yep the new owner did not had the time to go to Carnac because of private business. It can happen when you run your own business that you did not have all things under control.
And i would stop eating peanuts , with the humm it looks like you are choking in it, and when you have a problem with me then you should not spread it out on the internet , like you do everytime but directly contact me.