| Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: Poison Girl]
#206164 03/19/10 03:51 PM 03/19/10 03:51 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
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Posts: 1,203 uk | Do you mean the european iF20 rules? the ones that the inter 20 and the hobie fox were designed around? I have them on paper
Paul
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| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: TEAMVMG]
#206394 03/22/10 10:34 PM 03/22/10 10:34 PM |
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 10 Texas Poison Girl OP
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Posts: 10 Texas | Yes, that would be a start! Would you mind typing them up, citing where your information is from (sorry, I'm not trying to put a research paper on you) and posting them? If there are no rules available here in the States, then we will have to go with the European F2o rules and take it from there. For example, where did you acquire your copy of the F20 rules? We need a foundation for F20 in the U.S. Many thanks.
Last edited by Poison Girl; 03/22/10 10:35 PM.
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: Poison Girl]
#206502 03/24/10 09:00 AM 03/24/10 09:00 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 1,203 uk TEAMVMG
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Posts: 1,203 uk | Its about 20 pages downloaded from the old iF20 association website, so i am not in a rush to type them out, but i might try and get them uploaded to the website when i find someone that can!
Pretty similar stuff to the F18 rules, just with different measurements that now won't fit any boat.
Your best bet is to take the up to date F18 rules and tweak them to fit what you want.
Paul
teamvmg.weebly.com
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: Poison Girl]
#210059 05/02/10 09:22 AM 05/02/10 09:22 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 96 Carl
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Posts: 96 | Hello Many tried to get the foundations of a F 20 class going but the main problem was the Inter 20 in the US which was the predominant 20 for years was very different from the H Fox which was designed to the F 20 EURO based CLASS RULE . The inter 20 had 15 more sq ft of sail area in a larger sq top main sail - was 30 to 40 lbs lighter --and had other minor advantages . I think the new 20 ft cat by NACRA may be a better basis of basic sail area --beam --weight and length from which to establish a F 20 class of the future . Many design based rules and classes are based on what is refered to as a basic BOX RULE --the sides of the box being basic class dimentions measurements and specifications of length --20 ft --beam ? --sail area ?--min weight ?. Other tops and bottoms of the box can be added from there with fold overs added ;] HERE IS SOME BASIC INFO ON THE NEW 20 FT CAT Here is a link to the Texel ratings site: http://www.waterspor...29&mid=&mnu=241Then click on the link "complete list with all details." Here is a link to the Schrs site: http://www.schrs.com/ratings.phpTo find out the specific rated measurements for a class click on the class name. In Europe a ready to sail F20 C comes in at around €7,000(including tax) less than a ready to sail Marstrom Tornado! http://www.nacra.co.uk/Nacra_UK_Home.html | | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: Carl]
#210153 05/03/10 11:37 PM 05/03/10 11:37 PM |
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 10 Texas Poison Girl OP
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Posts: 10 Texas | I see the differences you point out in the Nacra 20 vs. the Fox. However, the Nacra 20 seems to be the predominant 20-foot catamaran competing in regattas in the United States and has been for the last decade. It doesn't look like that will change any time soon.
To establish United States Formula-20 Class specifications I am looking at simplicity. Let's start with sail area. I have seen several posts rating the Nacra 20’s sail area somewhere between 192-194 sq. ft. for the main sail (without mast), 53-57 sq. ft. for the jib, and 270 sq. ft. for the spinnaker. This appears to be an accurate perception based on what I’ve seen except for the jib, which I feel tends to be closer to 53 sq. ft. Is there anyone that would like to chime in on these specs for a proposed F-20 class in America?
Also, I found an old post of interest. It comes from a member named “Sail6000” in 2001. I thought it might provide some insight, although like I said I suggest we establish a sail area similar to what is described above and move on from there.
“-It has been recommended to base the class largely on existing Inter 20 specifications –of main sail 208 –jib 53sq ft. spin 270 sq. ft. as a guideline with more than 200 existing in the U S presently.
-SAIL AREA notes; -All designs may trade equal amounts of sail area from main to jib to allow sail plan design options and existing modification. -All teams will be allowed one additional sail of each type.for any race or regatta as a replacement,. -All sails to be labeled per size in 2 inch easily readable form at the tack next to the sail makers logo, all new sails to be listed and signed over the sq. ft 2 inch sq. ft. number per sail maker. Roller furling sails and reef points for the main are allowed, as is the spin snuffer.”
Rationale: I have been looking around the Internet and have found, essentially, no discussion about the F-20 class pertaining to the United States. Yet there are many sailors of 20-ft. cats looking to join an F-20 class. The F-18 sailors have had much success at this, but the bigger guys (like myself) who enjoy cat sailing are limited. Why should such limitations exist? F-20 rules can and should apply much like F-18 rules.
“Sail6000” posted some notes about crew weight which I deleted from his post because, based on the development of the F-18 class, seem irrelevant in 2010. It’s up to the sailors to maintain their maximum efficiency sailing weight.
I would like to hear anyone’s thoughts on the suggested sail area specifications.
Mike Team Poison Girl
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: cyberspeed]
#210662 05/10/10 05:52 PM 05/10/10 05:52 PM |
Joined: Mar 2010 Posts: 10 Texas Poison Girl OP
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Posts: 10 Texas | As per your quote, Carl, "I think you are on the right track and should just float a trial very basic set of formula 20 rules based on more updated newer designs being able to fit within it" I think you're right and that's the way to go.
It should be flexible enough to allow boats that are out there today. As a rule, we should go with an 11' beam (or is there a motion to make it 12'?) to allow the new F20 Carbon, but I noticed on the link sent by Cyberspeed that the sail area on the new Nacra F20 is 226 sq. ft. The sail area on my Inter-20 is about 192 sq. ft (without the mast), so is the 226 number on the F20 Carbon with or without the mast? Does anyone know?
I imagine the Carbon would blow the Inter 20 away for several reasons, including the additonal roughly 32 sf of spin area. But I'll propose that we worry about that when Carbons start showing up in the U.S. on a regular basis.
There's some Inter-20 sailors I know here in Texas who are unhappy with main sails coming from E/P these days, thus the movement to go to F-20. "Stay within the specs and get your sails where you want."
Last edited by Poison Girl; 05/10/10 05:57 PM.
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: cyberspeed]
#213269 06/09/10 12:21 PM 06/09/10 12:21 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I'm just throwing this out there for discussion - I haven't put much thought behind it.
What if you developed the IYRU B-class catamaran rule (where the Tornado started)? Does it need to be as restrictive as F18 or would the 10 item long A-cat-like rule set work?
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: cyberspeed]
#214315 06/22/10 05:20 AM 06/22/10 05:20 AM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK Jalani
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Posts: 1,382 Essex, UK | Original B Class spec:
Length 20' Width 10' Sail Area 235 square feet Crew 2
John Alani ___________ Stealth F16s GBR527 and GBR538 | | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: Jalani]
#214343 06/22/10 10:12 AM 06/22/10 10:12 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | One more attempt to focus the discussion., (having played in the past only to see the effort fall apart which drives the question... what did I miss)
Why do you want a Formula 20 rules set.... Obvious answer... to establish the conditions for FAIR RACING between 20's of different builders.
Next question... What races or regattas do you want to compete in?
The major distance races are contested now on measurement handicap... most view this as fair.... especially given the unique circumstances of any particular distance race.. (The old horses for courses argument). Why would a formula 20 rule improve this kind of racing...(versus the limitations it would impose on design) How many 20's are racing these days in the big distance races that would even be interested in a formula rule race replacing handicap.
Bottom Line Question... Why do you need a Formula class rule for Distance racing?
Seems to me... you only need a formula rule for short course buoy racing... (See F18, A class and C Class racing) The critical mass problem of getting enough boats to one event is enormous (see C class racing)... Only the 18 footers have solved the problem of numbers...
The Fair racing problem and participation in short courses has been solved by SMOD one designs (VX40, Decision 32, and the xxx27's) These purpose built boats are meant to compete in one circuit. The 20 footers HAD the Tornado with spin as the gran prix class (and now it is one design). ... but without the olympics... it's cratered. This evidence supports my point that it's the EVENTS which drive a class not the boat itself
I don't care how neat the boats are... it's the race or circuit which drives interest in the boat class. EG... the America's Cup drove all of the interest in the boats... Consider how limited the interest was in the maxi tri's out there breaking world records.... So... Amerca's Cup > XXX round the world > trans atlantic record. There is no obvious circuit for a F20 class
My point.... Given the investment... Why would a formula rule at the 20 foot level generate more interest in short course racing?... Or put another way... How much better would short course racing be over handicap or level racing given the numbers?
I answered the question and came to the conclusion that the F20 rule was simply too close to the f18's in experience and culture.. and you could just not make a strong case for a F20 rule.
So, without a good reason for existing... a class of people interested in pushing a F20 rule class just never materializes. The formmula 20 rule is simply a tool.... With out agreement on what the racers want to build.... even a perfectly marvelous rule will go unused.
Your milage may vary
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: cyberspeed]
#215113 07/01/10 01:07 PM 07/01/10 01:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | So we agree that specific races are driving the interest in a formula 20 class.
I suspect that the Tybee would allow an open class if you had 5 boats interested. Moreover, I believe the racing would be fairer on a measurement handicap rule then fitting your existing boats into a formula box and asserting that the racing will be fair under the formula.
Remember, The proof of a formula rule is on the water and knowing that it's fair is a precondition to getting good participation for an expensive to compete distance race. The F18 rule is proving to be fair, Even the very pro development A Class formula rule is proving to be pretty fair... a (Flyer I pulled a top 10 finish in a Race at the worlds. The F16 rule on the other hand generates controversy and boats that have different ratings.... time will tell if the controversy that we see now is just noise or the rules need tweaking. I don't think you can underestimate the need for boats allowed under the rule to actually BE level.... not just mathematically equivalent.... otherwise... your race turns into a tour.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Formula 20 Class Rules
[Re: cyberspeed]
#219563 09/14/10 01:36 PM 09/14/10 01:36 PM |
Joined: Sep 2010 Posts: 1 halfcat
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Posts: 1 | I've owned a Supercat 20, 12ft beam and a nacra 18sq, 11 ft beam. I'm a bigger guy than the f-18 skippers usually are and I think a wider beam (12') 20 foot cat is a great platform. I just saw the 2nd Nacra 20 Carbon to come to the US up close this past weekend and I think a box rule that is a maximum (less than max ok) is a good idea, with a simple list of rules like the a-cat it will foster development.
Last edited by halfcat; 09/14/10 01:37 PM.
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