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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206424
03/23/10 11:46 AM
03/23/10 11:46 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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*laughing* yep the Viper should win.. Why? because the Vipers will have the B2 "top gun" teams on them!!
If they don't beat the Blade/Falcons/Stealths then "B2" should be hung drawn and quartered by Greg for incompetency and stupidity.

I'm confident those two aren't incompetent and stupid!! After all they did beat you on the Ts on a regular basis.. So they will have a good combo sailing on "their team"..

So lets put the competition into perspective..
The first group of say 4 "club only" racers.. Using a non superwing/Goodall sail rig.. This should sort out the "faster" hull discussion..

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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206429
03/23/10 12:18 PM
03/23/10 12:18 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Macca,

Are you trying to be stupid or what ?

If you can't even look up the CORRECT Texel ratings or perform secondary grade arithmatic (104 - 102 = a 2 point difference) then you are only making a fool of yourself and dragging other well intending and unrelated parties like the AHPC company and Viper design down with it.

Also I didn't know we had arranged for a F16 class at Carnac this year and the fact that Brouwer is an Olympic medalist whereas people such as I are just, well, weekend warriors has absolutely nothing to do with us losing a direct comparison.

Afterall we also know the Tiger is a much better design then whatever F18 you are/were sailing as the Tigers have always beaten you over the years, right ? Right !

But you are correct about the following :

Quote

I have not stated a falsehood


Indeed, you have stated MANY FALSEHOODS.

Good day to you,

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/23/10 12:22 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Wouter] #206441
03/23/10 05:18 PM
03/23/10 05:18 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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Gilo  Offline
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Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Andrew,

Carolijn Brouwer(who will be sailing the Viper at the events you mention) (Olympic campaigner) should indeed win all the events you mention. Even better, she shouldn't even loose one single race, with here skills compared to the other teams. Don't understand me wrong, I'm happy to have her and the other pro Viper sailors on board as they are the ones you learn the most from and they are the ones with the abilities to sail the F16 in the picture.

Well I didn't tell anything new here, but it fits perfectly within this entire thread as I haven't read anything new in the last 25 pages....

Buy a Falcon! The fastest F16 in Belgium > check the race results!


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Gilo] #206456
03/23/10 08:30 PM
03/23/10 08:30 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
If some of you muppets put as much effort into sailing as you do dribbiling ****, you might be able to take a few races off carolijn. When is this we only got beaten because we can't sail **** gunna stop!


Aido
Viper 288
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Aido] #206468
03/23/10 11:41 PM
03/23/10 11:41 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 170
Brisvegas
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Brisvegas
Good point Aido. Matty Homan was able to do it in the NSW Taipan States a few weeks ago. 1st Matt Homan with Red Dog crew, 2nd Slater with Bundock crew, third Brouwer with Peachy crew. No photos but I was on the same course in the A States.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ACE11] #206474
03/24/10 02:33 AM
03/24/10 02:33 AM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 549
Knokke-Heist - Belgium
Gilo Offline
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******** to say that it is only the Viper that makes her fast!

I can't wait to sail Carnac and the Europeans as I really want to see how fast she is on the Viper and I hope there will be as much F16 as possible, whatever the brand.

Enjoy this thread.


Falcon F16 - BEL666
Boats: TheBoatShop.be
Stories: bladef16.blogspot.com
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Gilo] #206476
03/24/10 02:36 AM
03/24/10 02:36 AM
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 221
Netherlands
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Netherlands
The Raptor will also be at Carnac, so another F16 model will be there.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206478
03/24/10 02:46 AM
03/24/10 02:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 16
AUS
Bundy Offline
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AUS
Originally Posted by Stewart
*laughing* yep the Viper should win.. Why? because the Vipers will have the B2 "top gun" teams on them!!
If they don't beat the Blade/Falcons/Stealths then "B2" should be hung drawn and quartered by Greg for incompetency and stupidity.


I'm glad you don't expect to much.. So if the Viper wins its the sailors & if the Viper loses its the boat.. sounds fair?. We should take it as a complement but you cant have it both ways.. I hope we will win some and I'm sure we will loose some.

Maybe you should ask the question why we have chosen the Viper? could we have chosen any F16?

I would like to see this forum promote F16 as at the moment it does not. There are a lot of good ideas on this forum but they get shut down due to personalities.

Questions:
Why has F16 not boomed in Europe?
Why has F18? I don't believe they compete against each other for sailors but should complement each other.

The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.
Do you want manufactures involved?
Do you want full development?
Do you want to limit costs?
Who makes these decisions?

Looking forward to constructive brain storming..

Bundy (in Europe now)
www.2bsailing.eu



Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206479
03/24/10 03:02 AM
03/24/10 03:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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Wouter,

one up f16 rating = 101
two up viper rating = 104

my simple mathematic skills give me a 3 point difference... Correct me if I have made a miscalculation.


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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206481
03/24/10 04:28 AM
03/24/10 04:28 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Bundy
Questions:
Why has F16 not boomed in Europe?
Why has F18? I don't believe they compete against each other for sailors but should complement each other.
Because the European F16 manufacturers are confidential and do not manufacture enough boats. If you want a Stealth, you will wait for it for a god 5-6 months for example. Imports have been scarce because of costs of importing a small number of boats.

I'm thrilled AHPC decided to push the Viper in Europe, Francis success in France last year shows that there is a market and that with a minimum of marketing boats could sell.

Originally Posted by Bundy

The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.
Do you want manufactures involved?
Do you want full development?
Do you want to limit costs?
Who makes these decisions?

Please define "professional"?

Yes to get the big manufacturers involved. The more the merrier.

Yes to full development. Whoever is paying for it will pull the class forward. Yes it will make my sails, mast and everything obsolete. But guess what: they already are smile

Cost limitation will autoregulate due to the class rules. You can't build a boat lighter than the rule, or longer, or with foils. If someone is crazy enough to build a all carbon monster, with sails in unobtanium, heck that's fine with me. But if it measure, the performance gain will be minuscule compared to the performance gain of putting a Bundy on it rather than me smile

Those kind of decisions are made by the class members, by voting on the rules. I think the rules as they are are fine, I see no reason to change them. Some of it needs a little clarification, or a slight rewrite. But any change to any box rule parameter would be a mistake in my opinion.

Now AHPC has also a decision to make as well: Do they really want to push a F16 class or do they one to push some sort of one design Viper/104 kind of beast?

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206482
03/24/10 04:45 AM
03/24/10 04:45 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Macca,

Why don't you use the SCHRS ratings system ?

The rating differences between singlehanded boats (1-up) and doublehanded boats (2-up) is even larger there !

(see my other posts for a more detailed reply to your repeated inaccuracies)

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/24/10 04:46 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206484
03/24/10 05:44 AM
03/24/10 05:44 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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[quote=Bundy. . .
The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.
Do you want manufactures involved?
Do you want full development?
Do you want to limit costs?
Who makes these decisions?

Looking forward to constructive brain storming..

Bundy (in Europe now)
www.2bsailing.eu


[/quote]


I disagree on one point. smile The class is already under pressure to become more professional!

I can't speak to Europe but in the U.S. we are training measurer's and working towards certification of our fleet. A small group of us were at a seminar yesterday with an ISAF certified measurer. Our immediate aim is to certify boats for the upcoming Nationals in April. As we are starting from scratch, I expect this first exercise to have some rough edges, but we will do the best we can with the people and experience available.

This effort is absolutely in response to the criticism from other sailors, inside and outside the class, that we aren't serious minded. We are serious and intend to demonstrate the point.

In answer to the remainder of your post: I think having manufacturers involved is essential to strike some sort of balance among the other factors you've mentioned and I favor a strong class association as the final decision maker.

Imo, it would be of little value to produce a cutting edge product that no one could afford, for sale to the general public. However, it might be worth noting that auto racing permits and encourages factory prototypes. That might apply to our situation. As a "factory prototype" I'd say (just about)anything goes.

I have to add that I don't think we can have this discussion on an open forum and would very much like to see it (the discussion) restricted to boat owners.



Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206485
03/24/10 06:09 AM
03/24/10 06:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

So if the Viper wins its the sailors & if the Viper loses its the boat.. sounds fair?. We should take it as a complement but you cant have it both ways.. I hope we will win some and I'm sure we will loose some.




No that doesn't sound fair indeed and that is actually a very good point. Especially when the names are reversed.

When (amateur husband/wife) team McDonald made an impression in the last day of the GC2009 (two 2nd's and a 1st place) then it was because of the lighter winds and when they did less so in the earlier days it was because the Viper is a better design alround (not because team McD. scored 5 dns's due to part issues as they also scored several 4th, 5th and 6th places in the rough stuff).

This sword cuts both way apparently.

I for one see as good as all the F16 members (and the class) argue that under the formula rules (be it F18 or F16) it is ALWAYS the crew that makes the real difference. Whether the result is good or bad. Also no-one here really believes that 20 kg is enough of a factor to differentiate between (weekend warrior) crews when compared to the much larger differences caused by varying crew skills (many minutes per race) and indeed crew weights. Rating systems like Texel seem to agree as they rate the heavier designs (incl. my own homebuild) only about a minute slower per hour. Largely irrelevant when the fleet also needs 10-15 minutes to finish over a course of 60 min. duration. Interestingly enough, beafy Viper CREWS did very well at the GC2009 too. If a 40+ kg difference between Viper crews is of no large consequence then why should a much smaller weight difference (20 kg) between different F16 boats be ?

I actually find that a few well known posters (several of them not even F16 owners/sailors) repeatedly go against this realistic and well balanced stance and argue in favour of the Viper design when its CREWS win and against the other makes when THEIR crews loose. Opposite results are regulary ignored or explained away (GC2009, GC2007 and GC2008 come to mind) and indeed conflicts between their own arguments (inconsistantcy) are left unexamined.

I also find that neither AHPC, Daniel, Brett or anyone else officially linked to the Viper F16 design is party to that. Yet, I also don't see them actively combatting such distractions either.

I fear this does allow for the larger public to throw the official parties on the same heap as the distractors; which is unfair too, but also understandable. Afterall, cui bono ?

A sad situation that I feel is best correct by all involved.

The F16 class has a bright future whereas alternatives are indeed struggling (F104, FX-one, iCat, Inter 17, M18, Javelin 16, etc). We either all make this work or hope that a better alternative somehow establishes itself after we have allowed the truly viable F16 class to be killed off for no good reason. I seriously doubt whether the latter option has any merit. I was closely involved in the creation and initial growth of the F16 class and understand how hard it is to get something like this off the ground. There may well not be an (better) alternative for many decades to come.

Therefor I invite every (official) party to make a stand in favour of the F16 class as indeed mr. Bundock does in his posting.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/24/10 06:14 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206489
03/24/10 06:51 AM
03/24/10 06:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Darren,

In this seperate post I wish to give some of my view to the points you raise.



>>>Why has F16 not boomed in Europe?

Answer : Supply side and promotion issues.

I have always found that interest in buying these boats has always been around. I was involved in succesfully forming buying groups but issues in the supply side have often prevented sales from being finalized. I also found that demo rides were the best way to "seal the deals" but I stopped giving those about 3 years ago and no-one made an effort to reinstate that promo-activity. Best is to give demo rides with a skilled F16 skippers onboard to put the boat through its paces. The finish the program off, we need a visible support structure that customers trust and value. I refer to the history of Capricorn sales for details in this respect. Maybe the question :"Why was the Capricorn F18 boom halted" can be very entlighting. The F16 class didn't have such issues in the USA and the results are obvious.


>>>Why has F18?

Answer, why did it take the F18's so long before establishing viable fleets in say the USA ? Different times, different area's, different opportunities. A good number of developments (both good and bad) come down on luck. F18's also had early support by large builders in EU (but not USA), F16 does not mostly because we are indeed a customer driven class. We created it partly because we, the founders/sailors/buyers, felt that 150+ kg singlehanders composed of scrapped F18 parts were not attractive and the large builders were not about to provide the right boats for the target groups like singlehanders, light to medium crews, mixed crews etc. In short, the foundation on which both classes were founded is different. F18 was more a builders oriented class, created by builders (Mattia, Alado, etc) and actively pushed by it. F16 class was more of a correction of a skewed multihull scene and creating ourselves what the builders wouldn't not create for us.


>>I don't believe they compete against each other for sailors but should complement each other.

Yes, that was always the intention of the F16 class ever since the founding (among other things). The F16 class was actively engineered to fill in the remaining gaps, consolidate the catamaran scene around a few classes catering to all possible desires and act as a growth path to higher flying classes like the F18's, A-cats and any olympic class. Personally, I feel that truly entry level multi classes are still missing at this time. The SL16 class is mostly a French affair (nacra 500 would have been a better choice from an international perspective) and we still miss a laser-1 equivalent as the F12 class has not really provided that yet. See also the schematic that is attached to this posting.


>>>The F16 class will eventually come under pressure to become a bit more professional and now is the time to decide its direction for the future before it it happens.


I dare say that such considerations were already made at the very beginning. Several builders were consulted and indeed bought into that vision and truly believe in it. I name Formula Catamarans (Aus), Stealth Marine (EU), Catamaranparts (EU) and Falcon Marine (USA). Rumour has it that more are seriously considering it. AHPC was also consulted and did sell fully optimized boats to F16 customers at one time (Taipan F16's, modified at the factory). As such the class has a future for there are people like myself hwho will seriously consider boats made by these builders. I'm spoiled for life now since I've owned a F16 ! grin Not a weekend goes by that I don't thank the lord for my truly lightweight versatile boat. Often because other crews (of heavier) boats ask me to help them handle their boats from the parking to the waterline. I'm one of the very few that actually walks up his boat on the sandy incline; others use the electric winch.

The choice for these specific (lightweight) F16 specifications was inspired by professionalism. It aims at getting truly well made boats available from builders and the balance between the specs make it them very attractive buys. As such customers are much more willing to part with lots of money. All beach cats are expensive, that is a given, so it is much better to have a setup that speaks to the imagination of the customer. It just occured to me that maybe not so much the class but the builders/agents must expect to come under pressure to become a bit more "professional". Gone are the times where a 150 kg singlehander can be advertized as being state of the art.



>>>Do you want manufactures involved?

Yes, but on our terms !

The F16 class has a mission statement, if you will, and it doesn't want to end up back at 150+ kg boats composed of scrapped F18 parts and still cost 17500 Euro's.


>>>Do you want full development?

No, but we do want controlled development. Not evolving is equal to dying slowly. Heaps of multihull examples can be found for that.


>>>Do you want to limit costs?

Not really. We either want very well and purposed engineered boats for reasonable costs (say F18 costs or less) OR we want truly inexpensive boats (< 12.5000 Euro's) that are still sufficiently well behaved.

What we don't want is the worst of both worlds by giving up the best of both worlds as the F16 class currently appears to deliver. Afterall, I can buy a 15.000/112 kg Falcon F16 that has been specially developped for versatile 1-up/2-up sailing. A 40 kg less then the big builder alternatives and also 3000 Euro's cheaper.

Better still would be to work up such a market as the F16 class that customers are willing to pay more for these boats and thus allow the builders to earn more for their "professionalism". That would result in the ideal situation. Better boats with better earnings. Everybody will be more happy then. More happy then even with "less" better boats and more earnings.


>>>Who makes these decisions?

The class members do, but also to some extend the class founders. The latter do not have any special votes or whatever, but they did create the class with a clear vision that is now encoded in the F16 class rules. If they wanted to be part of the "old way of doing things" (heavy, expensive, mediocre and stagnant) then they would have bought into one of the existing classes that were around at the time (2001).

Transforming this vision into "the old way" by repeated votes and lobbying will not do any good. It will only make the class schizofrenic as it will try to act differently then what it truly is at its core. No one will benefit from that. Not the builders (who will first destroy a class and market in order to save it) and also not the boat owners (as they will resent them for it after knowingly buying into the old vision). Lets not forget that many of us have spend large sums of money to be part of this F16 class. It is not only the builders and agents with a sizeable stakes in how things are progressed. No-one wants to be grandfathered out of the class after having spend 15.000 bucks and often also lots of spare time as a volunteer.


I hope my statements are helpful in some way,

With kind regards,

Wouter

Attached Files
Last edited by Wouter; 03/24/10 07:25 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206491
03/24/10 07:08 AM
03/24/10 07:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
Firstly welcome to the class and this forum....

I actually postulated a way to "measure" hull speed alone.. Discounting good and bad crews.. Nothing more or less..

Do expect a lot from you and you teams!! you are both extremely talented sailors around the peaks of your skills.. I also expect others to pick up in response to a good team emerging.

Im sure there are reasons you chose the Viper.. AHPC builds a good platform.. I dont know if you spoke to all the manufacturers who currently build F16s or who have F16s on the boards.. Im sure though its a private business decision (as it should be)..



Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Hans_Ned_111] #206494
03/24/10 07:38 AM
03/24/10 07:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Western Australia
congrats and all the best with the design..

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Bundy] #206651
03/25/10 07:40 AM
03/25/10 07:40 AM
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 37
Western Europe
ClaytonF16 Offline
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Originally Posted by Bundy
Maybe you should ask the question why we have chosen the Viper? could we have chosen any F16?


Totally driven by the $$$ is my educated guess.

Originally Posted by Bundy
There are a lot of good ideas on this forum but they get shut down due to personalities.


Because pushy smart butt like macca with backing from the large manufatcurer ( its no secret who it is)constantly picks at the edge of the current class rules to suit his employers wishes........not the sailors.





Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ClaytonF16] #206733
03/25/10 03:37 PM
03/25/10 03:37 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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I have said it many times before, but once more for the dummies: I am not employed by any manufacturer currently.



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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ClaytonF16] #206743
03/25/10 05:50 PM
03/25/10 05:50 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 120
B
Brett Goodall Offline
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Posts: 120
Quote
Because pushy smart butt like macca with backing from the large manufatcurer ( its no secret who it is)constantly picks at the edge of the current class rules to suit his employers wishes........not the sailors.


Who's Backing Macca??

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Brett Goodall] #206748
03/25/10 07:05 PM
03/25/10 07:05 PM
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 1,012
South Australia
Darryl_Barrett Offline
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I don't think Macca needs anyone's backing - He is apparently quite capable of backing himself into a corner from which it seems, he has no retreat. And like all things cornered, he will use any and every means that springs to his mind, trying to extricate himself from “a sticky situation”. Still if Macca’s “opinions” are really his own, I respect that, as long as he respects my rights to disagree with them.

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