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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206782
03/26/10 06:44 AM
03/26/10 06:44 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

Wouter, would you care to comment on this interview with Greg Goodall. Echoing exactly the same points. I guess he is wrong too.



Okay, I'll bite.

I can buy a (wide-bodied) Falcon F16 at 112 kg (or lighter) for less money then I can buy a Viper F16 at 130 kg. Therefore I see no sound foundation for Greg's claim that more hull volume must increase boatweight beyond a few kg or that lightweight boats increase the costs to unacceptable levels. In fact, in the past I worked with him to sell a container of Taipan F16's to EU. ; that refers to factory modified Taipan 4.9's to full F16 specs INCL. min weight. The price quotes then were not out of line with what is being asked for regular F16's now. So I know AHPC can build affordable min. weight F16's. I also know that they simply decided not to do so. Greg feels the Viper F16 is a competitive boat even with the added weight and I agree with him. Greg was consulted on the carbon beams issue and a compromise satisfactory to all (incl. Greg) was reached in 2002/2003. The F16 class stands by that compromise (as should the other parties). Disallowing carbon masts would force a builder of the first hour plus many class members out of the class and give AHPC a monopoly on F16 masts (at least initially); neither of which is acceptable politically. Greg knows this.

In defense of Greg; he has always taken me seriously and never communicated with me in the way you and Macca seem to think is appropriet. As far as I can tell the Viper F16 design receives much benefit from the F16 class as indeed the other way around.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206783
03/26/10 06:55 AM
03/26/10 06:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

I will be taking the risk soon. And I am defending people who have been told they are wrong (both on and off line). I did not start the $hit fight but have every right to defend and agree with someone else's comments. It is a discussuion forum isn't it?????




Can't these people defend themselves ?

Do they need a champion like you for their cause ?

Nor I did start this %^$@-fight, neither the F16 class members. Who are you accusing of wrong doing here ?

But indeed, feel free to agree and disagree with people and discuss the issues on the forum. I nor others have banned you from this forum; we stand by our initial vision and that is to counteract arguments with arguments. Neither we are required to agree with you.

However, there is one rule of common sense. It won't do much good by disagreeing with FACTS.

You may believe the use of carbon makes F16's very expensive, but when compared to other designs in the market (typically not using as much of the stuff) then the costs of F16's (even carbon ones) is not bearing this out.

Arguing that future boats that use the same materials and approaches will be much more expensive then the fully upgraded versions now is a little unhinged. Typically, technological advances grow cheaper over time.

Exactly the point that Matt McDonald of Falcon Marine is making in his interview. Are you in fact arguing that he is wrong ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRR1zCnd0uc&feature=related


I feel that at that in such a situation the other posters are justified in telling you to recognize the facts and move on.

Having said all this, if you do decide for a F16 then I'm sure we all here are happy to welcome you and wish you the best of sailing enjoyment. Disagreeing passionately does not equate to disrepecting eachother.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 03/26/10 07:05 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #206784
03/26/10 07:02 AM
03/26/10 07:02 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
the class was advertised.. questions openly asked.. anyone at that time could have helped write the rules..

Ok so it wasn't on your horizons well... *shrugs*..

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206785
03/26/10 07:17 AM
03/26/10 07:17 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Hey, What "new materials" is Matt referring to in his interview? apparently will get the boats down to minimum weight, so I would love to know what these new materials are...

The Diamond inlays that Wouter goes on about? or maybe the unobtanium is the answer?


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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206787
03/26/10 07:24 AM
03/26/10 07:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Wouter  Offline
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Quote

the class was advertised.. questions openly asked.. anyone at that time could have helped write the rules..



Talk about ^%$#-fights !

I remember those days and we all did have some passionate debates back then as well.

But the F16 class rules are better for it !

At every single step, each and any feature had to be justified on verifiable merits in front of a (public) panel of peer-reviewers. Membership in that "panel" was completely open. Anyone who wanted in, got in and all debates were held out in the open here on the catsailor forum.

What time it was !

Harsh sometimes, but also very exiting.

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206789
03/26/10 07:38 AM
03/26/10 07:38 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
unobtainium is unobtainable.. Something about large blue men in leather G strings.. Your from Sydney you should know these things!!


Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206790
03/26/10 07:39 AM
03/26/10 07:39 AM
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525
pgp Offline
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Originally Posted by macca
Hey, What "new materials" is Matt referring to in his interview? apparently will get the boats down to minimum weight, so I would love to know what these new materials are...

The Diamond inlays that Wouter goes on about? or maybe the unobtanium is the answer?


I can't wait for Phil to get his Razor on the water. I'm predicting a little "tech shock"!


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ClaytonF16] #206792
03/26/10 07:53 AM
03/26/10 07:53 AM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 120
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Brett Goodall Offline
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Originally Posted by ClaytonF16
Originally Posted by HJS
Clayton - Stop these ridiculous insinuating statements. The F16 association does not need this kind of garbage. If you REALLY know WHO is paying him… Just say so, otherwise SHUT UP.


So obviously YOU are comfortable with manufacturers & their representatives dishing up garbage & incinuations and dont appreciate f16 sailors standing up to them.

Could this mean you are also associatied with a manufacturer.? AHPC?



Originally Posted by HJS

It is comments like this that will damage relationships between this class and ALL manufacturers. If you want their support, then stop treating them with such disrespect.


Disrespect....hmmm....no dissappointment is more the issue. This individual claims no current backing by a manufacturer, (he is obviously curently is Aussie land), but when macca fly's back to Europe he assemblems boats for Narca, assists in the delivery of the same boats, provides customer support & gets to go racing onthe same product.

So which is the better of two evils here........disrespect or dishonesty.

The F16 class has a set of rules - if you dont like them dont play


I have to agree with HJS on this one. It is pretty disrespectful to all manufactures to throw around accusations without any support or even naming them and allowing them to defend themselves. Manufactures do what we do because we love it.

If you assume we would "employ" people to bang the drum on online forum just in aid of our cause you are absolutely wrong. That is destructive to our brand and, more importantly, the class we belong to. If we have concerns with the rules or anything regarding the running of an association we go directly to that association.

As the F16 class becomes more prestigious, we do have the serious concern of a cost blow out. We have raised this with the association and they simply do not share this concern. We are satisfied that they have weighed up the facts and made their decision accordingly. Once again, we do not have the same opinion on this issue but just as clayton said "The F16 class has a set of rules - if you dont like them dont play"... we choose to play!!!

At the risk of starting another sh!t storm I think the "constructive conversation" here is really good. I don't think there is any need for the shooting down of ideas simply due to the persons putting them forward. I like it when people have differing opinions, it gives us all an opportunity to learn.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Brett Goodall] #206794
03/26/10 08:06 AM
03/26/10 08:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Marcus F16 Offline
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Marcus F16  Offline
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 322
South Australia
Originally Posted by Brett Goodall
... we choose to play!!!


We chose to play also & relish the challenge.


Marcus Towell

Formula Catamarans Aust Pty Ltd
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206795
03/26/10 08:10 AM
03/26/10 08:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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MERRITTISLAND, FL
Originally Posted by macca
Hey, What "new materials" is Matt referring to in his interview? apparently will get the boats down to minimum weight, so I would love to know what these new materials are...

The Diamond inlays that Wouter goes on about? or maybe the unobtanium is the answer?



OK,
Let’s start with the simple things. Epoxy resin is twice as expensive but has not appreciable advantages over a good vinylester resin, buy your logic we should ban it to control costs?

We can build with Rohacel core and still have better structural properties at almost half the weight of the Divinicell style core being used by the big builders. We have nano filled resin systems. My neighbor has a surf board at 1/3 less weight than a standard glass board and he can drop it onto the pavement from his van roof and it will not ding or dent. Think what you could do to your hull weight not having to have extra laminate just to withstand heels, knees, trailers and the beach?

This is just 2 very quick examples of things that anyone could go use today if you wish. Any added expense or processing issues in all likelihood will be resolved within a few years time. And in that time who can predict how many other new technologies may come along. You find carbon fiber now in everything from shoes to rocket ships (most of it is stricktly for marketing bling) but I would say it is pretty common and available technology today. Why if people can build better boats as new technologies are introduced should we as a class restrict ourselves to the dark ages? If you want that there is already a class for you.

If you are actually interested in doing something positive for the F16 class, please stick to the topics you know something about. I am sure everyone would be significantly better off learning and discussing how to sail better and faster.

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Matt M] #206797
03/26/10 08:22 AM
03/26/10 08:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,021
Australia
macca Offline
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macca  Offline
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Australia
Matt, I was asking a question..

But you should never miss an opportunity to have a shot at me.. smile

Back to your post though:- So you are saying that the class should allow everything because one day it might become cheaper than the current standards? I think you would be better to leave the material experiment stuff to the guys with big budgets like the AC teams, big boat builders and industry specific researchers. Then take advantage of the developed technology. Unless the F16 is prepared to become a guinea pig class for boat fiddlers at the expense of quality fleets and racing?

If Carbon was in any way cheaper than glass or alloy then I would see no issue with it, however in the real world it is more expensive to build a boat, masts etc out of carbon. (unless you are going to tell me that you can build a boat in carbon for the same price as a glass boat?)



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Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206798
03/26/10 08:57 AM
03/26/10 08:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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All becoming handbags at dawn. Who swings first?

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: macca] #206799
03/26/10 08:57 AM
03/26/10 08:57 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Actually we already leave serious materials stuff to the AC guy/girls this then trickles to the Cs and A girls/boys. In my day it was the 18teens.. There has been no real new technology in hulls since the 80s apart from low temp epoxies.. Mainly just costs have decreased hugely.. Where new technology has come into the sport is in sail material, sail design and ropes..

But all this was discussed when the rules were written..

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: taipanfc] #206800
03/26/10 08:58 AM
03/26/10 08:58 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
I want the Hermes!!

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206821
03/26/10 11:17 AM
03/26/10 11:17 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
I didn't want to announce this yet but it seems it's time, as you will find out next week anyway when you trip over it.

I've been secretly working with some guys out at the Lockheed Skunk Works, they are building me a minimum wt. F16 out of all the lastest aerospace fibers. As an added bonus, it's invisible. That's right, you can't see it, or the sails, which will make it a bitch to measure.

I'm taking the "Stealth" thing to a whole new level. When you see me go by you, it'll look like I'm kite sailing, but no kite, or board. In reality I'll be on my invisible Skunk Works boat, the SW F16! I think I'll call it "The Little Stinker". Hey, what's that smell? That's me baby! Bowin' by you so fast I need to change my underware!

And when you are walking up the beach, do NOT trip over the hulls. Sure, it will look like my empty set of beach wheels, but in fact it will be my new boat! Stay away, far away. I wish I could tell you more about it, but then I'd have to kill you.

Now, here's the best part. After I pay these Lockheed guys $1.2 Million to build my Little Stinker, I can win the...what?

The F16 N/A's?

The GC?

So what? What does that get me? Is there a cash prize? Can I get Lockheed to sponsor me? Maybe they'll make me a dealer? I'll bet as soon as I win the N/A's the orders will be flowing! Maybe I can quit my day job and just Sail for a living! Whoo Hoo, look at me now baby!

Anyone who thinks they are going to spend a bunch of money to build up the -ultimate- F16 and then beat some of the better sailors in this class, is smoking crack...or should be. And why would they do that? What is the big "Payoff"? Same goes for changing the rules, why would you want to do that unless there is some monetary reward?

So you are the F16 Galactic Champion. So what? Who cares? Anyone?

We don't even have a cat in the Olympics anymore, so who cares what you won, once, on your super cat? I really don't see that as a credible threat to the class.

All the Unobtainium in the world won't make up for a bad start, a blown tack, or a slow douse. Concentrate on sailing, let the tweakers tweak to their heart's content, and let's see what works. Some day maybe carbon will be cheaper and we can all get new masts and beams. Until then, the F16 rules are as they are for a reason. The best sailors are still going to win most of the races, no matter what they are on. A few kilo's one way or the other won't change that.

Let it go.

And don't back up, that could be my new boat right behind you...



Blade F16
#777
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Stewart] #206881
03/26/10 10:20 PM
03/26/10 10:20 PM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Maryland
Originally Posted by Stewart
I want the Hermes!!

Birkin or Kelly? Somebody knows his handbags!


Kris Hathaway
Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: Kris Hathaway] #206882
03/26/10 11:08 PM
03/26/10 11:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 170
Brisvegas
ACE11 Offline
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Brisvegas
Don't stop this discussion now - it's my daily cheap entertainment!

A couple of comments though from an outsider who is unlikely to ever sail an F16.
Some brief comparisons have been made with A's in terms of both weight and cost. I have some knowledge in that area and don't believe the comparisons to be very useful. A's are long established in the market (late 1960's) and attract committed racers who are prepared to try different things almost without regard to cost. They are viewed as a premium product, usually with the best fittings and components, and the build labour is expensive. This is because of not only expensive materials such as carbon but mainly the expertise and time required to build hulls to the tolerences and strength to get down to the weight. F16's on the other hand are new to the market and are price sensitive to attract new sailors or convince those from other classes to make the change.
A heavier A for example by 20kg would sell no boats as it would impact greatly on performance. An increase of 20kg for an F16 has much less impact because it changes it's upwind speed little and downwind it, unlike an A, more than doubles it's sail area downwind. In the case of the Viper the extra weight seems to have gone to stiffer beams and bigger volume hulls. These factors probably at least compensate for the extra weight. AHPC have been able to keep the cost down and provide better performance by utilising some common parts with the F18. Sounds like a win/win to me.
Getting AHPC involved with F16 seems to me to be a good thing for them and the class. As a medium sized builder they can generate exposure all over the world unlike the others who seemed to be only able to sell boats in their own region. I can't speak for other place but in Australia it is still a relatively rare thing to see an F16 at a regatta. With the Viper and if other large manufacturers get involved that should change.
Good luck - it's a fine concept and will hopefully get more people on the water.
I have no affiliation with AHPC other than being a satisfied customer for the last 28 years.
BTW Brett, I'm sure HJS is glad you agree with her.............

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: ACE11] #206885
03/27/10 01:08 AM
03/27/10 01:08 AM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 539
taipanfc Offline
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Originally Posted by ACE11

BTW Brett, I'm sure HJS is glad you agree with her.............


There would be fireworks at home if he didn't!

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: taipanfc] #206887
03/27/10 03:56 AM
03/27/10 03:56 AM
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Posts: 1,449
P
phill Offline

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I would like to find out something new.
What does the J stand for ?


I know that the voices in my head aint real,
but they have some pretty good ideas.
There is no such thing as a quick fix and I've never had free lunch!

Re: lets join forces and get this sorted out [Re: phill] #206888
03/27/10 05:28 AM
03/27/10 05:28 AM
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Posts: 586
Hobart, Tasmania, Oz.
Dazz Offline
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Timbo,

the Klingon's, Romulans and JAMES BOND have had cloaking technology for like years! Why dont you try and come up with something original! like a transwarp drive so you can finish before you start smile


C2 AUS 222 by Goodall design
"Darph Bobo"
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