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Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Mark Schneider] #207209
03/31/10 01:42 AM
03/31/10 01:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
Hey Mark -

The Multihull Council does not administer the Area Qualifiers - the Area Reps do as part of their volunteer work. While it is true that the Area Reps make up almost the entire excom of the Council, they actually run the eliminations for the Multihull Championship Committee. The Committee is free to decide to change handicap systems.

To put it another way, the Council can't tell the Committee how to administer the Championship or the Ladder Events.

And, Lee - let's chat soon. I'd love to get your perspective.


John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: John Williams] #207221
03/31/10 08:11 AM
03/31/10 08:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
John, I'll see you at Alter Cup. I've got a couch if you or Dennis Kee need a place to stay. Small place till I get my house built but can handle one guest. PM me and I can give you the address if you want.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: geert] #207332
04/01/10 04:26 AM
04/01/10 04:26 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Baltic Offline
enthusiast
Baltic  Offline
enthusiast

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 246
Kiel, Germany
Originally Posted by geert

Quote
i was sure that I had read about how they knock out the top% and bottom% from each class of finishers and work out the number based on the average for the mid fleet!


That part is correct!

Nico Boon makes these analyses every year, so that we have an indication if our formula is still correct.

Geert


Even if all F18s have to comply to the class rules (dimensions, sail area, etc.), why do they have to have the same Texel rating? I think we can agree upon that more recent models are faster than early ones - actually this has made the F18 field of Texel finishers as such faster. If F18s race among each other, no rating is used - but in a mixed regatta the new ratings penalise early F18s like old Tigers, Inter 18s, etc. a lot.


F18: C2 / A-Cat: Minelli
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Baltic] #207352
04/01/10 08:55 AM
04/01/10 08:55 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
There is no old tired flexible boat discount in any reasonable handicap system.

Put the same rock stars on brand new Tigers and what is your guess at the time difference between this Tiger and a Wildcat in an hour?

It will never happen but my guess is ...that it is not "much faster"

You realize that the precision of these rating schemes is only 1 % (they round the rating off for a reason).

If you had a perfect formula that reflected the small speed difference between a Tiger and a Wildcat...or a Cap 1 and 2 or a F18 and Infusion... it would be rounded off in practical use because the far larger factor in time around the course is the sailor. (Olympic races have spreads of 3 to 5%)

My point being that using a rating with more precision is not going to make the handicap game any fairer or allow handicap racing to manage the differences between F18 Tigers versus F18 Wildcats.

On the other hand... getting an accurate rating is essential! Texel's vetting of their rule by comparing the middle of the fleet times versus Portsmouth's approach of comparing the performance of only the first place boat gets you to an accurate rating system much faster.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Baltic] #207363
04/01/10 10:28 AM
04/01/10 10:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Dan_Delave Offline
old hand
Dan_Delave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 984
2017 F18 Americas Site
Originally Posted by Baltic
why do they have to have the same Texel rating? I think we can agree upon that more recent models are faster than early ones - actually this has made the F18 field of Texel finishers as such faster. If F18s race among each other, no rating is used - but in a mixed regatta the new ratings penalise early F18s like old Tigers, Inter 18s, etc. a lot.

I believe in the the Box Rule that makes up the Formula 18. If you took all the "old" boats and put them on the water as brand new boats I think you would see that the formula is working. Each owner is able to update their boat with newer equipment, such as sails. If you think that old boat with old equipment should get some consideration with a better rating I have to disagree. What would denote a change to the same time penalty as they make upgrades to their boat? There are conditions that Tigers and even Inter-18s shine. I feel it would be a huge disservice to the class to make these distinctions. We are growing great with the setup and the goal is class racing in the end.

Dan DeLave

Last edited by Dan_Delave; 04/01/10 10:32 AM.
Re: F18 Texel Rating changed... [Re: Dan_Delave] #207391
04/01/10 06:24 PM
04/01/10 06:24 PM

D
DUH
Unregistered
DUH
Unregistered
D



Texel ratings are based on specs, not age, sorry. Tigers are still really fast in the right conditions as well. Don't make it more complicated dude.

Last edited by DUH; 04/01/10 06:25 PM.
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