I like the idea of keeping the N20 class viable, we have the N5.8 in Aus still going strong and it fills a need and I hope it last a long time too.

But I am curious... Why wouldn't you consider the F20 because its wide?? It can't be the trailering (much easier to drive with the boat on the tilt, vision is better and you take up less road width)

so, whats the issue apart from it's different?

I think for most it's the money. It is for me.

Likewise. I could live with the width - but I can't justify a new 20 footer at today's prices (even the regular 20).

Personally, I would really like to get one after I get my house finished. The biggest "NO" factor would be that there would be no one to race against. I've only seen two M20's. I just don't see a strong class emerging with that boat (if any class at all).

Lee. buy 6. I bet you can find skippers to race here.

Price is the big thing for me too. I just can't justify spending more on a beachcat than I did on a brand new SUV to pull it.

We're a sorry lot. Check the prices on the new 20' mono sport boats. People are buying them...

Ok, a few up front questions, sorry if this comes off wrong, but I find exercises like this to be helpful at times. Maybe we'll like the answers, maybe not. I've stuck my thoughts with the questions.

What's our goal in this whole thing? What do we want to accomplish for the N-20 class?

It seems we all want an updated sail plan, but why?

Simply because we want sails that compare to the F-18 (pissed that they beat us)? (my opinion - That's a moving target the current plan won't hit)

Just want a more up to date sail plan, don't care if it compares to the F-18? (my opinion - We're on track here)

Just want better consistency to the cut of the sails available now? (my opinion - Don't change a thing, just ask for more consistency and don't have sail lust when on another class boat)

Answer the above list, and be honest.

Now, what do we want the N-20 class to be?

Top dog 20' class? (my opinion - It isn't anymore, that's the F-20. It's never going to compete as the top boat anymore, unless we really open development.)

Top dog distance racing class? (my opinion - Almost, until the F-20s find a way in)

Formula boat? (my opinion - It's not a formula class, so it will never go head to head with the F-18s or A-Cats for new tech. Unless we take the class effort one step forward and try to set up US Formula 20 class again.)

A decent 20' foot class with available used boats as an alternative to F-20s, or non-spin 20' classes? (my opinion - Closest fit, but may leave some unsatisfied and may not attract the folks who would be interested in buying new boats. What does this offer that F-18 does not?)

Why do we want to save the class, why not get Chuck to make the F-20 the new boat and give it traction? (my opinion - don't know, maybe I don't like owning two dead boat class boats, but Tybee in F-20s sounds like fun...)

Setting our expectations for what we want the class to be will help us be happier with the sail plan decisions. Anybody ask the perspective of the NE guys on their decision to dump the 20 footers and go F-18 (not from a why we should dump the class perspective, but from a what they were looking for perspective)?

Keith:

I want to be able to beat the F18's on a distance race time on time regardless of the wind direction.

If the N20 doesn't fill the distance king niche then its doomed to become the training boat for soon-to-be F18 teams.

The whole reason I got into Multi's was because I could go faster than the lead-haulers for a fraction of the price!

Once the wife and I become a DINK couple then I can seriously consider getting a F20 - but it doesn't help that Nacra US wont even tell its dealers how much one in the US would cost!!

My opinion again - if the F-18 is the yardstick then we need a measurement rule for the sails. The sails and the hulls are updating on those boats, if we're on a multi-year plan to just get one iteration of sail plan...

Does your scenario include or exclude the possible arrival of the F-20 on the US distance scene? What would make the N-20 better than the F-20 in off-the-beach and on-the-beach sailing? Will the F-20 come on the scene just as the new current plan sails are complete? Is distance racing the objective? Do we not care so much about buoys? Do we just start a distance class and run different sails?

Nobody can know what the F20 is going to do to the class. I don't know how many we'll see over here - so trying to figure out what its going to do to the class is like throwing darts in the dark IMO.

I think that the "moving yardstick" analogy is fair - however, the F18 is what we compete against as far as crew weight and boat "niche" is concerned. If we don't at least try to remain relevant in regards to sail design, then I think we've already consigned our boat to the DBS.

Tad, why in the world are you setting a different class as your benchmark?? You want to be able to beat an F18? No sweat - you have two options. Get an F18 driver who is a mid-fleeter or start sailing a lot more.

Keith is onto something - you guys need to agree on just what you're after. Right now I see a bunch of blind guys groping an elephant.

+1 I meant to add that option earlier - sail faster!

I'm exercising extreme restraint in not making "groping an elephant" jokes...

I've got a boat.

It's a nice boat

It's a really durable boat

It goes fast and it likes big ocean.

The boat is still relatively modern...except the sails.

I would like newly designed sails for my boat.


(there's my logic).

John: Because unless the N20 can beat the F18 boat for boat on a distance course, the N20 is superfluous in the lineup of competition beach catamarans and the F18 class will continue to steal sailors from our class like it has been doing over the past couple years.

Good morning all!

Wow. I can't tell you how many times my friend Tad has refuted that by talking about how the N20 is THE boat for the big boys. And it drives better. And it is much harder to pitch. Seriously, there are a ton of reasons the boat is just fine as-is without any changes at all. Wanting the builder to make some sailshape mods like Jake is describing is perfectly legitimate if the class decides to ask for them (which it sounds like it has already). But this is the first time I've heard the "I want to be the scratch boat" thing. Like I said, you guys need to listen to Keith and get together on goals. I don't think it is good to base decisions on a different class' performance, though - just my opinion.

OK, sounds like the goal is beating F-18s in distance racing. If this is the goal, then my opinion is create a measurement rule based on the current sails and open the manufacturers now. You'll get improvements in cut and shape that will help get what you want, and you won't have to wait years to get it. If the measurement rule is based on the current sails, then the current sails will be viable (for mid-pack at least) for most sailors until they can afford their next set. If this runs afoul of the Nacra OD class association, then again I would form a distance racing class for this purpose. Sounds like most are interested in the boat for distance racing anyway.

Agreed. I want my boat to handle better and be more manageable through a more efficient sailplan. Some additional speed (to weather mostly) would be a nice plus. Don't get caught up in this F18 boat for boat thing. Besides being a fruitless fight due to two incredibly different class development policies, it only serves to start kicking dirt at the other and draw a thicker more aggressively defended "party line". The N20 won't win that one. Know our place. It's a big powerful well balanced boat that is great in the ocean and is more forgiving to beefier crews. It is not an F18 killer.