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Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208432
04/14/10 05:17 PM
04/14/10 05:17 PM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Well then, to keep it "Simple", change it to 'any spinnaker boat has right of way', period. Then in your scenario, C has right of way over both A and B, and A had just better get out of the way and B can tell A he's got to have room to keep clear of C.

I think giving absolute right-of-way to "any spinnaker boat" will be just as problematic. Imagine two boats sailing downwind. One is clear ahead and not flying a spinnaker. The other is clear astern with chute up. Do you really want to give right-of-way to the astern boat? What about two boats on opposite tacks going downwind? Which one has right-of-way? The starboard boat or the spinnaker boat?

Quote
I don't know the history of when and why the "Leeward boat has right of way" rule was written, but I'm guessing whom ever wrote it never envisioned a fleet of spinnaker cats coming downwind at nearly 20 knots...while one boat is going upwind yelling he's got "rights", as if the spin boats can hear him anyway, or can do anything about it, when the puff is on.

Rule 11 "ON THE SAME TACK, OVERLAPPED" derives from the IRPCS, which has roots back to before spinnakers existed and before catamarans were known, so yes, spinnaker catamarans were not envisioned. The basic premise is that the windward boat is most likely more maneuverable, given that the leeward boat may be blanketed.

If your fleet of spin-cats is sailing downwind towards one lone upwind boat... sail around him. It shouldn't be much more difficult than sailing around an anchored committee boat.

If visibility and escape are the problems, then what about a windward cat (flying a spinnaker) with a leeward cat (also flying a spinnaker) in his blind spot? Which one gets right-of-way? How is this situation any different if the leeward boat isn't flying a chute? Why should the rules be different?

No amount of fiddling with right-of-way is going to remove a boat's responsibility for maintaining a lookout. You must know what's in front of you, and plan for how to keep from hitting it.

Regards,
Eric

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208437
04/14/10 06:46 PM
04/14/10 06:46 PM
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Michigan
PTP Offline
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If you ever see another boat when you are out sailing- racing or not- ask yourself who has rights whether they are 2 boat lengths away or 20. You will learn the rules. I always have to think about that when running downwind with the spin because which tack you are on wins out first, windward leeward only when two boats are on the same tack.
My concern is always: "crap, should I go above and hope I don't hit by a puff or go low and slow just to get out of the way." Same thing with overtaking other boats downwind.


I agree with the concern that started this thread- a spin boat who doesn't see you and you don't see them has potential for death at the speeds we are talking about. I think we all get lucky- especially when it is blowing because no matter how hard you try you still might miss something- and then the other boat misses you and BOOM... more than money at issue. Although I agree with the thought behind the thread, changing stuff will probably just confuse things more

Last edited by PTP; 04/14/10 06:50 PM.
Re: safe sailing [Re: PTP] #208438
04/14/10 07:28 PM
04/14/10 07:28 PM
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Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Eric

Has there ever been a case where someone's published words... to the effect that "I have a blind spot and have difficulty keeping a proper lookout with my spinaker up" been used against them in a protest hearing.

EG... That was bozo billy as the give way boat... he doesn't know the rules and has stated that he can't see around his spinaker anyway ... therefore... as the ROW boat... I judged that in my cross with him that he fouled me ...and worried about a collision, I took action to avoid a collision. I hailed protest... perhaps this was a lot sooner then I might have if olympic sailor X was the give way boat but I had no evidence that bozo billy was following the rules of the road and allowing my right of way. I had no choice!

Mark



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: safe sailing [Re: Mark Schneider] #208441
04/14/10 07:40 PM
04/14/10 07:40 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
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Yeah, with the way the rule is today, just about any boat coming upwind could claim he thought he was about to be run over by any nearby spinnaker boat coming downwind hot.

Yell "Protest" and now the guy's got to snuff the chute and do a circle or two...That's a great way to make up for a bad start and hose the guys coming down on you!

I'm thinking this rule might need to be looked at in detail and perhaps updated for today's newer, faster, asym spin boats. I would think some of the faster Mono's with Asym. spins might have this same problem, what do the Melges guys think? I don't go to Sailing Anarchy, ever, but if some of you do, can you ask them if it's ever been a problem?


Blade F16
#777
Re: safe sailing [Re: pgp] #208442
04/14/10 07:41 PM
04/14/10 07:41 PM
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South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by pgp
Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by brucat
...Do you have a suggestion for a better rule...?

Nice post! It asks a key question and gets us back on the original topic. I'm curious to see what proposals come out of it. Personally, I am skeptical how a rule change can help the problem of not keeping a good lookout, but I'm willing to be proven wrong.

Regards,
Eric


I believe safety should win out. It is not physically possible to keep a good lookout on a spin boat in all cases as there is a blind spot. A boat going to weather has much better visibility; hence it should carry most of the burden.

Spinnaker has the right of way should be the rule, imo.

Further, in the interest of safety, spin and non-spin boats should be on different courses whenever possible.




By your logic, if I buy a car with a 10" windshield, it's other people's responsibility to stay out of my blind spot?


Jake Kohl
Re: safe sailing [Re: Jake] #208445
04/14/10 08:42 PM
04/14/10 08:42 PM
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Posts: 263
SC
zander Offline
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I do agree that spin and non-spin should be on different courses if at all possible for two reasons:

1: more races - not waiting for non-spins to finish

2: at least the skippers of spin boats understand the limitations of driving downwind. People who do not regularly sail with a spinnaker might not understand the danger of getting in either the blind spot or forcing a spin boat to go over you downwind. That a recipe for disaster.


Ask Jake about Charleston, He knows the danger of this situation all too well.


Always borrow money from a pessimist. He won't expect it back.
Re: safe sailing [Re: zander] #208447
04/14/10 08:52 PM
04/14/10 08:52 PM
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Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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>>>By your logic, if I buy a car with a 10" windshield, it's other people's responsibility to stay out of my blind spot?<<<


Jake, if everyone had the same 10" windshield, the driving laws might have to change, for safety, not a competitive advantage, that's all we are saying.


Blade F16
#777
Re: safe sailing [Re: Mark Schneider] #208480
04/15/10 07:42 AM
04/15/10 07:42 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
Has there ever been a case where someone's published words... to the effect that "I have a blind spot and have difficulty keeping a proper lookout with my spinaker up" been used against them in a protest hearing.

I don't know of an authoritative source that matches that scenerio exactly, but here are some that are instructive:

Originally Posted by ISAF Case 107
Rule 14 begins 'A boat shall avoid contact with another boat if reasonably possible.' This requirement means a boat must do everything that can reasonably be expected of her in the prevailing conditions to avoid contact. This includes keeping a good lookout...
In this case, a right-of-way (ROW) boat was disqualified under rule 14 because she could have reasonably avoided contact if she had kept a good lookout. The boats were keelboats with genoas rather than catamarans with spinnakers, but both were in each other's blind spots and their bowmen were busy handling sails. I think this case translates pretty well and clearly indicates that a cat under spin is still responsible for knowing what's in front of her - whether she has right-of-way or not.

Originally Posted by ISAF Case 99
The fact that a boat required to keep clear is out of control does not entitle her to exoneration for breaking a rule of Part 2.
The rules do not excuse poor seamanship. You are responsible for maintaining control of your boat.

Originally Posted by US SAILING Appeal 51
When she cannot see behind an obstruction, an obligated boat must anticipate what might appear from the other side of the obstruction.
Originally Posted by ISAF Case 27
A boat is not required to anticipate that another boat will break a rule.
When you can't see what might be behind an obstruction, it is your duty to anticipate the appearance of a ROW boat. It is not their job to expect you.

Originally Posted by ISAF Case 87
A right-of-way boat need not act to avoid contact until it is clear that the other boat is not keeping clear.
Originally Posted by ISAF Case 50
When a protest committee finds that... there was not a genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision..., it should dismiss her protest. When the committee finds that... there was reasonable doubt that P could have crossed ahead of S if S had not changed course, then P should be disqualified.
A ROW boat is not required to take avoiding action until it is clear that the give-way (GW) boat is not. However, in many instances that may be too late. Therefore, a ROW boat is permitted to take avoiding action when she has a "genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision". If she does, then the GW boat breaks a rule. A 16-18ft catamaran under spinnaker going 20kts sails roughly 2 boat-lengths per second. If you assume that a ROW boat needs 5 seconds to execute an avoiding maneuver (such as tacking), then it is reasonable if she acts when the GW boat is 10 boatlengths away. The spin-boat in question would then have broken rule 10 or 11 (whichever applied).

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208482
04/15/10 07:53 AM
04/15/10 07:53 AM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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can you imagine trying to keep out of the way of a spinnaker boat - they steer all over the place!

Not gonna happen, it ain't broken so don't try and fix it.

even if you have right of way with your kite up, you are still going to have to steer a straight course and keep a look-out to allow the upwind sailors to stay out of your way.


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: safe sailing [Re: Timbo] #208484
04/15/10 08:19 AM
04/15/10 08:19 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
Yeah, with the way the rule is today, just about any boat coming upwind could claim he thought he was about to be run over by any nearby spinnaker boat coming downwind hot.

Yell "Protest" and now the guy's got to snuff the chute and do a circle or two...That's a great way to make up for a bad start and hose the guys coming down on you!

I'm thinking this rule might need to be looked at in detail and perhaps updated for today's newer, faster, asym spin boats. I would think some of the faster Mono's with Asym. spins might have this same problem, what do the Melges guys think? I don't go to Sailing Anarchy, ever, but if some of you do, can you ask them if it's ever been a problem?

If the boat going to windward with right-of-way has a "genuine and reasonable apprehension of collision" with the downwind give-way boat and she takes avoiding action, then yes, the boat under spin breaks a rule. If her apprehension is not genuine, or reasonable, or if she does not take avoiding action (and there was no contact), then the GW boat does not.

I think the existing rules are just fine and spinnaker-boat sailors simply need to own up to their obligations. I've served at Melges 24 National and North American Championships as both Race Committee and as Judge and seen them screaming downwind in 20-30kts breeze. I never heard one of them complain about the rules - not even when we disqualified a port-tack boat under spinnaker for contacting a starboard-tack boat going upwind.

Originally Posted by Timbo
>>>By your logic, if I buy a car with a 10" windshield, it's other people's responsibility to stay out of my blind spot?<<<

Jake, if everyone had the same 10" windshield, the driving laws might have to change, for safety, not a competitive advantage, that's all we are saying.

Sorry, I'm not buying this argument. You've proposed unconditional right-of-way (superceding rules 10, 11, and 12) for any boat flying a spinnaker over all boats that are not. You have not proposed any change for when two boats that are both flying a spinnaker meet. That is directly analagous to proposing that car with a 10" windshield have unconditional right-of-way over a car with a full-size windshield - even at an intersection when the normal car has a green light.

<Sarcasm alert on>
I sail a sloop-rig cat (no spinnaker) and I've never had any problem sharing a racecourse with spin-cats. They're fun to watch and look like a blast to sail. Until this thread, however, I've never realized how dangerous spin-cats are - what with that big "blind spot" and all. Obviously, for the sake of safety a rule change is required. Therefore I propose this simple new rule that will solve the problem without impacting the game or conflicting with existing rule application:
"Spinnakers on catamarans are not allowed."

Oh, and cars with 10" windshields should be outlawed too.
<Sarcasm alert off>

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: zander] #208485
04/15/10 08:52 AM
04/15/10 08:52 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by zander
I do agree that spin and non-spin should be on different courses if at all possible for two reasons:

1: more races - not waiting for non-spins to finish
I disagree. First of all, the spin boats may not necessarily finish first. The non-spins might start first, they might be sailing a shorter course, or they might be sailing fewer legs. Secondly, nothing compels RC to wait for boats of another class to finish before starting you again. If you're sitting around waiting for a start, complain about Race Committee, not about other boats sharing the course.

Originally Posted by zander
2: at least the skippers of spin boats understand the limitations of driving downwind. People who do not regularly sail with a spinnaker might not understand the danger of getting in either the blind spot or forcing a spin boat to go over you downwind. That a recipe for disaster.
This is also a specious arugument. It's your responsibility to keep clear of leeward boats (when windward) or starboard-tack boats (when on port tack) - regardless of their sailplan. It's your job to watch your blind spot, and protect your escape lane - not theirs. They don't "force you to go over them" - you simply didn't plan ahead. If there's danger in these situations, it's because the give-way boat under spinnaker failed to keep a good lookout, failed to anticipate an encounter, or failed to keep under control.

Sincerely,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208488
04/15/10 09:46 AM
04/15/10 09:46 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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I sail a crewed spin boat and have no issue with going downhill on a crowded course and my head is on a swivel. Although those guys on suicide port coming uphill can be annoying especially when they are yelling "close hauled keep clear", but it is fun to see the reaction when you say... 'starboard'.

Yes there are those folks that believe a close hauled boat is the ROW boat over one going downwind.



David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: safe sailing [Re: David Ingram] #208499
04/15/10 10:18 AM
04/15/10 10:18 AM

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andrewscott
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andrewscott
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A



Originally Posted by David Ingram
Yes there are those folks that believe a close hauled boat is the ROW boat over one going downwind.


Ok, i am ignorant, but trying to learn.. downloaded the RSS and will put it in my library... but

I know Starboard and Leerward have rights, but downwind has rights over upwind?

Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208502
04/15/10 10:33 AM
04/15/10 10:33 AM
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HMurphey Offline
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Scott,

As you read and learn the Racing Rules of Sailing (RRS's) you will learn that there are different levels to determining which vessel has the Right of Way (RoW) or is the Burdon Vessel/Giveway Vessel, OK???

First Level: Starboard Tack as rightaway over a Port Tack Vessel

Now if both vessels are on the same tack you move onto the second level to determine who has the rightaway

Second Level: A windward vessel (upwind) shall keep clear of a leaward vessel (downwind). Usually this situation developes between a vessel headed "down" the course w/ a vessel "beating up" the course.

OK???

(Think of it a Poker ... both players have a pair of 10's ... whom has the highest card next card in their hand determines who wins the hand ... you have a "Jack" ... but I have a "King" ... I win ...)

Harry

Re: safe sailing [Re: ] #208505
04/15/10 10:38 AM
04/15/10 10:38 AM
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Hillsborough, NC USA
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by andrewscott
I know Starboard and Leerward have rights, but downwind has rights over upwind?
In the scenerio David describes, the boat going downwind is on starboard tack and the boat sailing upwind is on port tack. Because they are on opposite tacks, rule 10 applies and rule 11 does not. Some sailors mistakenly think that whenever they are sailing upwind, they are leeward boat and have right-of-way when in this case, they do not.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: HMurphey] #208506
04/15/10 10:46 AM
04/15/10 10:46 AM
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Isotope235 Offline
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Originally Posted by HMurphey
... there are different levels to determining which vessel has the Right of Way (RoW) or is the Burdon Vessel/Giveway Vessel...

First Level: Starboard Tack as rightaway over a Port Tack Vessel...

Second Level: A windward vessel (upwind) shall keep clear of a leaward vessel...
While it may be convenient to think of the rules as a hierarchy, they are not. The conditions when each of rules 10, 11, and 12 apply are mutually exclusive.

Rule 10 applies between boats on opposite tacks.
Rule 11 applies between boats on the same tack that are overlapped.
Rule 12 applies between boats on the same tack that are not overlapped.

I hope that helps,
Eric

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208509
04/15/10 10:52 AM
04/15/10 10:52 AM

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andrewscott
Unregistered
andrewscott
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Gotcha, thanks.. that is what i thought, there is no upwind downwind rule, just in this (Ding's) situation the upwind boat thought she had the ROW when he was wrong for several reasons (on port tack, and being closed hauled means nothing as far as ROW is concerned)

Re: safe sailing [Re: Isotope235] #208512
04/15/10 11:01 AM
04/15/10 11:01 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Isotope42
Originally Posted by HMurphey
... there are different levels to determining which vessel has the Right of Way (RoW) or is the Burdon Vessel/Giveway Vessel...

First Level: Starboard Tack as rightaway over a Port Tack Vessel...

Second Level: A windward vessel (upwind) shall keep clear of a leaward vessel...
While it may be convenient to think of the rules as a hierarchy, they are not. The conditions when each of rules 10, 11, and 12 apply are mutually exclusive.

Rule 10 applies between boats on opposite tacks.
Rule 11 applies between boats on the same tack that are overlapped.
Rule 12 applies between boats on the same tack that are not overlapped.

I hope that helps,
Eric

That being said Port always yields to Starboard Leeward or not.

p.s. Eric If you ever want to sail on one of those "fun" spin boats, let me know. You'd be more than welcome on mine.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: safe sailing [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208516
04/15/10 11:14 AM
04/15/10 11:14 AM
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Eric has some excellent posts, especially number 208480 on Page 9 (too long to quote)…

I also agree that putting spin boats on their own course, with their own rules still won’t solve everything, there will always be boats coming upwind (even in the same class). For boats of vastly different performance (i.e. Waves vs. I20s), it helps, but most clubs don’t have the resources to pull this off, especially for the turnout we’ve been getting over the past few years.

As for getting more races in, that’s a completely different race management topic, and there are all sorts of ways to make that happen, even on a shared course. Most effective is a separate finish line.

Guys, we’re talking about at most, 20-30 spinnaker boats on a course at one time. What do you think it’s like (some of you know) at a 100+ spinnaker boat event (EU). I don’t hear them complaining, so it must be manageable under the current rules?

Jake, do you have something against Hummer H3s? They have 10” windows (I once sailed with a girl who had one, she said it was like driving a coffin)…

Melges 24s “screaming” downwind (or on any other point of sail)… now THAT’S funny! And yes, I’ve been there, the only scary thing is the mass they carry if they collide at those “high” speeds…

Mike

Re: safe sailing [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #208520
04/15/10 11:41 AM
04/15/10 11:41 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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Eric,

Agreed .... but it's just the way I find it easier to mentally check-off the rules to determine if I have the right-of-way or not .....

I would describe it more of a "Family Tree" or a "Yes-No/If-Then" type diagram as I mentally analyze the situation to determine which rule does apply.

But everyone analyzies problems differently even if they arrive at the same conclusion ...

Now there is several other solutions to this issue ....

1) Dump the chute .... you may go swimming ... but CeLaVie'

2) I have a beautiful but huge chute for my P-19MX that when up leaves no visiblity (and I do mean none!!!)to leaward when flying ... and guess what .... I WILL NOT RACE MY P-19MX around a closed course w/ that spinnacker !!!!

To quote that famous San Fransico Detective Harry (Dirty Harry) Callahan, "a man must know his limitations" .....

I know that I'm just not that good if conditions get hairy... and I will not hurt anyone else .... especially just for a sailboat race ....

Harry

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