| |  Re: safe sailing
[Re: mbounds]
#208591
04/16/10 07:56 AM 04/16/10 07:56 AM |
andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
Unregistered
| [
However, downwind boat is in the middle of a jibe which would make him the GW boat. GW boat? | | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208594
04/16/10 08:04 AM 04/16/10 08:04 AM |
andrewscott
Unregistered
| andrewscott
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| | | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: ]
#208595
04/16/10 08:15 AM 04/16/10 08:15 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida. Timbo 
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Sebring, Florida. | See? That's the problem right here, how is a spin boat running on the very edge of control supposed to "Give Way" to -anybody- but King Neptune?
This is why I say, let the guy without the spin get out of the way, it's much easier for him to manuever and he's got all options available. The Spin boat has only two options when the puff from hell comes on: Crash or save it, but while trying to avoid the leeward boat, he's going to crash, and might even crash into the leeward boat.
Like I said earlier, these rules were written long before the faster asymetric spin boats were ever developed. It's just a matter of time until someone get's "poled".
Blade F16
#777
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Timbo]
#208596
04/16/10 08:30 AM 04/16/10 08:30 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Roanoke Island ,N.C. | If your not in control you shouldn't be helming a boat,PERIOD.
If being out of control is part of your plan of attack than you need practice and maybe turn it down a notch.Generally, ragged edge of control is not fast.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208598
04/16/10 08:32 AM 04/16/10 08:32 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Or is that weigh? Matt? 
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: HMurphey]
#208599
04/16/10 08:34 AM 04/16/10 08:34 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Roanoke Island ,N.C. | Now that is an interesting picture .....
What tack is the windward spinnacker boat on????
The spinnacker indicates a port tack ..... but the boom is on Starboard tack ........?????
The leaward boat is definately on port tack ......
Eric ..... help????
What tack is a boat on when sailing downwind "wing and wing" mode .... what is the major determining factor .... the mainsail/boom?????
Note, as leaward boat I'm just going to stay out of the way ......
Harry It's the boom,even though that one is not gonna be there very much longer.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: pgp]
#208605
04/16/10 08:56 AM 04/16/10 08:56 AM |
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA Isotope235
old hand
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old hand
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 807
Hillsborough, NC USA | Before I begin, let me be perfectly clear that I am not singling out anybody in particular and I'm not trying to attack anyone, but I'm about to express an opinion that some may not like.
I don't want to believe it, and I'm not happy to say so, but it seems to me that people are trying to excuse poor seamanship by blaming the rules. The argument goes "I can't see other boats, and I can't control mine, so other people should be obligated to avoid me". The fact of the matter is that ALL boats, whether they have right-of-way or not, must avoid contact if reasonably possible. That means everybody must watch out for other boats, and maneuver safely when boats meet.
Let's face it. If you cannot keep a good lookout, or you cannot control your boat, then YOU are the safety problem. No amount of rule changes can correct that.
Regretfully,
Eric | | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Isotope235]
#208607
04/16/10 09:06 AM 04/16/10 09:06 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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OP
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| Eric, I respect your opinion, even more so, your right to express it.
In the future, I will not participate in regattas where non spin boats are on the same course with spin boats. Those of us with spinnakers understand the situation, those without do not.
Cheers.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: pgp]
#208610
04/16/10 09:13 AM 04/16/10 09:13 AM |
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI mbounds
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI | Eric, I respect your opinion, even more so, your right to express it.
In the future, I will not participate in regattas where non spin boats are on the same course with spin boats. Those of us with spinnakers understand the situation, those without do not.
Cheers.
That's the most ridiculous generalization I've heard in a long time. My primary racing is done in non-spin boats (Hobie 14, 16, 17). However, I've owned an F18 and I know what it's like to drive one downwind in a regatta - with non-spin boats on the same course. | | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208614
04/16/10 09:18 AM 04/16/10 09:18 AM |
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI mbounds
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,884
Detroit, MI | Now that is an interesting picture .....
What tack is the windward spinnacker boat on????
The spinnacker indicates a port tack ..... but the boom is on Starboard tack ........?????
The leaward boat is definately on port tack ......
Eric ..... help????
What tack is a boat on when sailing downwind "wing and wing" mode .... what is the major determining factor .... the mainsail/boom?????
Note, as leaward boat I'm just going to stay out of the way ......
Harry It's the boom,even though that one is not gonna be there very much longer. From the definitions in the RRS: Tack, Starboard or Port A boat is on the tack, starboard or port, corresponding to her windward side. And Leeward and Windward A boat’s leeward side is the side that is or, when she is head to wind, was away from the wind. However, when sailing by the lee or directly downwind, her leeward side is the side on which her mainsail lies. The other side is her windward side. When two boats on the same tack overlap, the one on the leeward side of the other is the leeward boat. The other is the windward boat. So technically, it's not the boom that makes the difference, it's the sail. Important only on boomless boats - like the Hobie Wave. | | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208615
04/16/10 09:20 AM 04/16/10 09:20 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Sebring, Florida. | If your not in control you shouldn't be helming a boat,PERIOD.
If being out of control is part of your plan of attack than you need practice and maybe turn it down a notch.Generally, ragged edge of control is not fast. Man, it must feel great to be -so good- that you never once, never in your life, had a rudder stall out when trying to gybe in a hellacious puff... Wow, I can only hope to be that good someday. Until then I guess I'd better stay on shore any time the wind comes up or is forecast to come up...
Blade F16
#777
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Isotope235]
#208623
04/16/10 09:33 AM 04/16/10 09:33 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Clermont, FL, USA | Before I begin, let me be perfectly clear that I am not singling out anybody in particular and I'm not trying to attack anyone, but I'm about to express an opinion that some may not like.
I don't want to believe it, and I'm not happy to say so, but it seems to me that people are trying to excuse poor seamanship by blaming the rules. The argument goes "I can't see other boats, and I can't control mine, so other people should be obligated to avoid me". The fact of the matter is that ALL boats, whether they have right-of-way or not, must avoid contact if reasonably possible. That means everybody must watch out for other boats, and maneuver safely when boats meet.
Let's face it. If you cannot keep a good lookout, or you cannot control your boat, then YOU are the safety problem. No amount of rule changes can correct that.
Regretfully,
Eric Eric, thank you for saying what many of us are thinking.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Timbo]
#208627
04/16/10 09:41 AM 04/16/10 09:41 AM |
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Roanoke Island ,N.C. | I didn't say it never happens, but to want to change the rules because it's such a common occurence ,is a problem.The discussion was also about seeing other boats not rudders blowing out. The whole premise of this thread astounds me. I don't want to believe it, and I'm not happy to say so, but it seems to me that people are trying to excuse poor seamanship by blaming the rules. The argument goes "I can't see other boats, and I can't control mine, so other people should be obligated to avoid me". The fact of the matter is that ALL boats, whether they have right-of-way or not, must avoid contact if reasonably possible. That means everybody must watch out for other boats, and maneuver safely when boats meet. Read that quote, I'm saying the exact same thing just not as PC correct,But those that know me know that's not my strong point. Accidents happen,if a rudder blows out and you hit another boat that is an anomaly not an occurrence that demands a rule change. If you aren't keeping a proper watch and you hit another boat, that is poor seamanship. there's a big difference. Also I have sailed a spin rigged cat for 15 years, and do not agree with the forementioned generalization.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208628
04/16/10 09:42 AM 04/16/10 09:42 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 5,525 pgp OP
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OP
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Posts: 5,525
| For the record, I've never hit another boat, never been protested.
However, I was almost run down by a spin boat and had to scramble to prevent the collision. The offender was an internationally known sailor.
Ding, you know exactly who I'm talking about.
You guys just don't get it. The game has changed; for the most
part you guys are sailing twenty year old technology. The rules need to keep pace with progress.
It's about safety, not about being "dead right".
Last edited by pgp; 04/16/10 09:49 AM.
Pete Pollard
Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: safe sailing
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#208630
04/16/10 09:48 AM 04/16/10 09:48 AM |
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Sebring, Florida. | It must be nice to live in that perfect world where nothing ever goes wrong while sailing...ever. This thread is about SAFETY while sailing, and the inference that with the advent of the modern spin. cat the rules might need to be looked at.
And we have a guy who's never even sailed a modern spin cat, let alone driven one downwind in 20 knots with boats coming upwind, calling us who do, Unsafe?
I'm saying, it's going to happen [a collision] no matter how much you "protect" your escape lane, as if you can even do that when some upwind coming boat suddenly tacks into your escape lane...what's the plan now Olley? Douse the spin, get by him, then reset it??
I've never hit anyone either but I won't say I never will...it would not be intentional but it could happen, so I guess I'd better take up Chess, since I'm the problem.
Blade F16
#777
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