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Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Keith] #207926
04/11/10 09:02 AM
04/11/10 09:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

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Keith, you said, 'the three fastest growing classes IMO are the A-Cat, F-16, and F-18. All require measured sails and measured boats." However you omitted the Wave.
On measuring, I might add, is not that big of a deal. We only measure new sails.., not for every regatta. That would be a real pain.
So, the sail is measured and recorded, and the tack area is signed by the measurer. From then on that sail is just fine.

Incidently, one of the main reasons we opened up the sails and set up measurements was the stock Hobie sails were coming in with as much as 8" difference on the luff length.

And no one in our class knocks the Hobie sails.., they have won the nationals many times.

The beauty of having other sailmakers involved is allowing design ideas to come into the class that might improve performance. And soon, the price of the sails will start getting lower -- it is called capitalism.., free market competition. It works.

I'll never forget when a guy showed up for my seminar just before the Nationals with a new design sail by Randy Smyth. Awesome.., and funny -- it was a deck sweeper!
Probably would have been pretty fast, but the guy couldn't get from one side of the boat to the other. He had to take it to a local sail loft and have all the extra foot cut off.
We did make changes to the measurement rules to be sure it didn't happen again. But, you see the really cool thing was the innovative thought in it all.


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
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Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207927
04/11/10 09:45 AM
04/11/10 09:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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Quote
3) Current Performance Sails, my understanding, don't fit our carbon rigs, i.e, they were built for the aluminum mast.


Someone fed you some wrong info.

Quote
1) Measuring sails is a PITA, but it needs to be done to ensure fairness, if the sails are factory or not. If the class starts doing this before major events (Tybee, Nationals, Tradewinds, Spring Fever), we will seriously up the quality control from EP.


Please enlighten us as to how this will happen. So are you saying that if EP thinks we're going to start measuring them, they'll get scared and do a better job?


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: ThunderMuffin] #207928
04/11/10 10:08 AM
04/11/10 10:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,459
Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.


http://www.tybee500.com/index.php?module=page&func=display&pageid=5

And there's another N20 that I know is doing the race that isn't on the list.

If the F18's are going to claim the distance moniker - then they at least need to show up at the premier distance event in NA.

And - if what you say is true about the prices being nearly the same on the N20 / F20, then we have a bigger problem than just sail plan development.


Hadn't looked at this year's entry list (a painful thing to do if you can't make it...). My statement was based on last year, given their success at Tybee and GT. The boats can do it. Throw in the feeling of things at the Tybee awards ceremony. But, if they aren't showing up this year, then the premier races have a vested interest in the life of the N-20 class as well.

Last new price I heard for a N-20 was $27k, that was last year. Given that the last quote I heard for a carbon mast was $11k... If the $30k mentioned for the F20 is right, that's close enough to maybe cause issues.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: RickWhite] #207929
04/11/10 10:10 AM
04/11/10 10:10 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
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Annapolis,MD
Keith Offline
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Rick,
Sorry to omit the Wave. What I've seen buying new class sails for the N-20 is significant variation in the cut/luff of the spinnakers, and significant difference in the luff shape of the main.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Keith] #207941
04/11/10 06:37 PM
04/11/10 06:37 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by Keith
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
I think out of your two options listed what will happen is #1. It's already happening for distance racing.


http://www.tybee500.com/index.php?module=page&func=display&pageid=5

And there's another N20 that I know is doing the race that isn't on the list.

If the F18's are going to claim the distance moniker - then they at least need to show up at the premier distance event in NA.

And - if what you say is true about the prices being nearly the same on the N20 / F20, then we have a bigger problem than just sail plan development.


Hadn't looked at this year's entry list (a painful thing to do if you can't make it...). My statement was based on last year, given their success at Tybee and GT. The boats can do it. Throw in the feeling of things at the Tybee awards ceremony. But, if they aren't showing up this year, then the premier races have a vested interest in the life of the N-20 class as well.

Last new price I heard for a N-20 was $27k, that was last year. Given that the last quote I heard for a carbon mast was $11k... If the $30k mentioned for the F20 is right, that's close enough to maybe cause issues.

Most recent prices I have heard were $6500 for the mast and 25k for carbon masted boat(less for aluminum masted boat). I also heard that the N-20 wasn't on the newest (at the time) pricelist. Maybe it was an oversight or maybe they aren't considering it in the inventory.Any dealers care to comment?


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #207947
04/11/10 08:04 PM
04/11/10 08:04 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 19
Chesapeake va
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catsailor2032 Offline
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Chesapeake va
hi i am in need of a set of i 20 daggerboards if you could help thanks


Sailing catana411. i20
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: TeamChums] #207956
04/11/10 09:08 PM
04/11/10 09:08 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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That is basically what I am saying. Here are a couple of thoughts:

1) We should be measuring in sails before major events in the same manner as the F18's. This prevents people from buying a sail from their local sail maker, putting an EP logo on it and calling it a day. This also ensures we are getting equal cut sails from EP.

2) You CANNOT measure an old main against a new one and expect the sizes to be the same, this is Materials Science 101. However, two new mains in a one design class should be the same size within a tolerance. Also, I have personally seen variation in spinnaker cut, but to be fair, 3 out of 4 were within a 1/2", the other was much further off.

3) Europe has two different N20 sailplan's, excluding the Aluminum vs. Carbon mast debacle. I've heard the Performance Sails spinnaker hoist height is different from the EP's-this is ONLY word of mouth.

4) I have the prices on new N20 performance sails, and the bottom line is very favorable for EP given the current exchange rate. Most people are happy with EP's build quality, the prices are slightly high, but I can tell you that no one in the U.S is going to pay $700-$1000 more for a complete set of PS sails vs. EP sails

As far as new boats are concerned, its tough to grow the class when the top sailors aren't buying new boats. In all active classes, the top sailors are typically turning over boats once every 2 to 3 years; perhaps not because they absolutely need to, but if they sell the boat to someone they know will race it, they helped out the class significantly by adding a boat to the fleet. This isn't happening, as far as I can tell, in the N20 class. Part of this is the price; I'm not going to spend $25k on a new N20 when, for 3k more, I can have an all carbon F20, or for $5-10k LESS I can get an F18. The aluminum mast, however, is a real option and needs to be taken seriously by the class in order for growth to occur; if we don't accept the aluminum mast, people are going to write off there boats when they break the carbon mast, and people aren't going to buy new N20's with expensive carbon masts because the price doesn't make sense. I'm not suggesting the aluminum mast is tougher or necessarily faster than the carbon mast. I do believe it is more tunable, and the same sailor should be able to make it perform equally to the carbon rig.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: catsailor2032] #207961
04/11/10 09:19 PM
04/11/10 09:19 PM
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. . . couple of thoughts to ponder, and I'm curious . . .
1) what ever has happened to the class membership drive from last year? here
2) are all class member's interests being considered? notifications? votes??
3) I was told that the aluminum rig will be certified this year and eligible to compete in the class. How does this play into this discussion?
4) how many new nacra 20's were delivered in the U.S. in the last year?
5) why the concern if an owner wants to buy a complete set of sails or not? Huh?
6) was defending N20 champions Alex and Nigel part of the 6 attending this meeting and their thoughts considered?

FWIW, I know that Alex sold his boat and they defended the championship on a chartered boat.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207963
04/11/10 09:32 PM
04/11/10 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by samc99us


4) I have the prices on new N20 performance sails, and the bottom line is very favorable for EP given the current exchange rate. Most people are happy with EP's build quality, the prices are slightly high, but I can tell you that no one in the U.S is going to pay $700-$1000 more for a complete set of PS sails vs. EP sails

As far as new boats are concerned, its tough to grow the class when the top sailors aren't buying new boats. In all active classes, the top sailors are typically turning over boats once every 2 to 3 years; perhaps not because they absolutely need to, but if they sell the boat to someone they know will race it, they helped out the class significantly by adding a boat to the fleet. This isn't happening, as far as I can tell, in the N20 class. Part of this is the price; I'm not going to spend $25k on a new N20 when, for 3k more, I can have an all carbon F20, or for $5-10k LESS I can get an F18. The aluminum mast, however, is a real option and needs to be taken seriously by the class in order for growth to occur; if we don't accept the aluminum mast, people are going to write off there boats when they break the carbon mast, and people aren't going to buy new N20's with expensive carbon masts because the price doesn't make sense. I'm not suggesting the aluminum mast is tougher or necessarily faster than the carbon mast. I do believe it is more tunable, and the same sailor should be able to make it perform equally to the carbon rig.

Sam,
you've made some wide sweeping assumptions here, some folks might want to purchase the Performance Sails. He's making some awesome sails. . .

I've seen the aluminum rig, raced against it, have seen it get tuned up, talked at length with those sailing it. Fact, it's fast! and has seen a nice jump in development to the old rig. So, how is this going to affect the class?


Philip
USA #1006
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207964
04/11/10 09:32 PM
04/11/10 09:32 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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1) Not sure, but it doesn't matter unless people send their $5 in and register this year (per my original post)

2) This is the most active/vocal group available. We need to spread the word to other owners not online, and get them online.

3) See above. It's important because that means new sail shapes for the aluminum rig

4) Excellent question. Off hand it was 0, but that requires dealer confirmation.

5) The concern is exiling existing owners. If a new main and spinnaker were released at the same time, presumably both are faster than the old set. I would need to buy both to be competitive, at current retail price of $1800 for a main and $1300 for a spinnaker; $3100 is tougher to come by than $1300 one year and $1800 the next.

6) Alex and Nigel were both sailing F18's at spring fever. Nigel was fairly busy running around, as it is his event. We mostly kept the meeting for current boat owners, however, we should have included them as their opinion does matter.

Alex and Nigel being current champions brings up another interesting point; it is tough to say that they are the best N20 sailors out there. There are at least 2 other events, the Tybee 500 and Tradewinds, that could be used to say the same thing. That's whats great about this platform-it can do everything, and do it all very well, very fast, and not explode while mother nature rips it to shreds.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207965
04/11/10 09:36 PM
04/11/10 09:36 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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Philip,

You are absolutely correct that I am making some wide-sweeping assumptions. Please don't take this the wrong way; I am pushing Nacra Europe VERY hard to allow us to use Performance Sails (they exist for the platform so why not use them?) At the same time, I don't want to make EP go out of business or completely kill his sail line as they are also very nice sails, and his customer support has been nothing but fantastic to me and most of the people I sail with. I will also state, for the record, that I cannot afford a set of PS at the price premium they are currently commanding.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207966
04/11/10 09:36 PM
04/11/10 09:36 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
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Originally Posted by samc99us


Alex and Nigel being current champions


They have also played an important part of all things Nacra.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207967
04/11/10 09:38 PM
04/11/10 09:38 PM
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I keep posting in between your post and miss your last reply. Sorry. BTW, I'm a big fan of EP and Skip.


Philip
USA #1006
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207969
04/11/10 09:49 PM
04/11/10 09:49 PM
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Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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Not a big deal, good to keep the conversation going. Not really sure how to get Nigel and Alex interested, they seem to have already switched to the F18 class and only sail the N20 when they want. I think we would all love some hard FACTS from dealers concerning aluminum masts, boat sales, new boat prices etc.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: P.M.] #207974
04/11/10 10:09 PM
04/11/10 10:09 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Originally Posted by mummp
Originally Posted by samc99us


Alex and Nigel being current champions


They have also played an important part of all things Nacra.


I don't believe they are N-20 owners anymore.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207975
04/11/10 10:11 PM
04/11/10 10:11 PM
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Posts: 338
Nimrod Offline
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Being a third party observer and not haveing a dog in this hunt, am I understanding the NACRA factory is not supporting the Inter/Nacra 20 class?


Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Nimrod] #207976
04/11/10 10:18 PM
04/11/10 10:18 PM
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Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
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samc99us Offline OP
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Incorrect. They are still completely supporting the N20. We are lobbying them for an updated sail plane, through the factory. Please read my first post in this thread.


Scorpion F18
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207977
04/11/10 10:29 PM
04/11/10 10:29 PM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Originally Posted by samc99us
1)
5) The concern is exiling existing owners. If a new main and spinnaker were released at the same time, presumably both are faster than the old set. I would need to buy both to be competitive, at current retail price of $1800 for a main and $1300 for a spinnaker; $3100 is tougher to come by than $1300 one year and $1800 the next.

I think this is a weak argument. If someone can't afford the sails at the same time ,they wait. No sense in punishing the rest of the class. If you can't afford to be competitive in a class(Upgrades,sails,etc.)then maybe a more affordable class is the way to go, not dragging the class down also. Most likely if you aren't spending the money to be competitive,in any class ,you're not competitive.Slowing down or inhibiting sail growth either by release times or restrictions to a single sailmaker is not going to change your seriousness or competitiveness.You WILL be competive with those with the same commitment as you. Harsh,but true,Sorry. This is an argument that I've heard for years, so this isn't directed to Sam or anyone else specifically. Those that know me ,know I've always been behind the financial curve, so it's not like I can outspend anyone,but if new sails or anything else are a priority, I find a way to make it happen, or I wait/save until I can do what I need. I'd love to own a new F20 but I don't expect the company to hold release of the boat until I can "afford" it.
I'll probably wait on the new spin until the main comes out anyway(if that's the way they have to do it) so I have all new sails at the same time. less doubts that way.
Todd


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: samc99us] #207978
04/11/10 10:30 PM
04/11/10 10:30 PM

M
MarkMT
Unregistered
MarkMT
Unregistered
M



Originally Posted by samc99us
2) This is the most active/vocal group available.

In what sense? There are nine boats in CRAW alone.

Re: N20 Owner's Meeting Update [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #207980
04/11/10 10:36 PM
04/11/10 10:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Team_Cat_Fever


I don't believe they are N-20 owners anymore.

I covered that in my previous post. Tawd, were you one of the six? Your opinion matters.
What's the current membership count that you championed last year?


Philip
USA #1006
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