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Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: waynemarlow] #212019
05/27/10 06:32 AM
05/27/10 06:32 AM
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Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Could it also be the "nut on the tiller" doing the work.



Of course, that is why all this "US$40K class killer" nonsense is such BS.

In the overall scheme of things, material choice is an almost negligliable factor. It comes well behind other factors like sailor skill, the boxrule limits, sailcut, luck, etc.

That is the core argument of these posts.


I would have loved to the faces of those crews laying down 35k and for that "all-carbon miracle" and then finding themselves trailing behind a much smaller plain glass/alu cat costing less then half their purchase cost. Can't say that they weren't warned, we've seen this happen several times before with the M20's and F18's.

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/27/10 06:37 AM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
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Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Wouter] #212024
05/27/10 07:18 AM
05/27/10 07:18 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Wout, just so you know, I'm on your side in this thing.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: pgp] #212033
05/27/10 08:23 AM
05/27/10 08:23 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 953
Western Australia
Stewart Offline
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Stewart  Offline
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Western Australia
haven't we beaten this dead horse enough? just bury it please..

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Stewart] #212040
05/27/10 08:52 AM
05/27/10 08:52 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Is it truly dead? I'd be very happy to learn that is the case, but it keeps resurrecting itself.

Perhaps when it stops attracting responses...


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: pgp] #212042
05/27/10 09:15 AM
05/27/10 09:15 AM
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 606
Maryland
Kris Hathaway Offline
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Maryland
Originally Posted by pgp
Is it truly dead?
Decomposition is a long, drawn out process. First, flies & vultures. Then maggots. Later worms. I think we have seen them all just with other identities.


Kris Hathaway
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Kris Hathaway] #212047
05/27/10 11:01 AM
05/27/10 11:01 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Come on... The reason the issue is not dead (great graphic Kris) is that you have not convinced the general cat racing public that you are right and this weight thing is a non issue!

Your recent problem is that a very very good Hobie 16 RACER (meaning, a team that races nationally at 280 to 310... eg. a perfect F16 candidate) looks at the two spin classes and has to choose between the F18 scene and the F16 scene. Obviously, he considered all the factors but he opted for the F18.
The good news is that he told you of his concern about the potential for an equipment edge which could be easily purchased by some. That's not a game he will play.

The largest market of racers is the Hobie 16 class. The F16 Class should be very concerned when top sailors in such a class opt out of the F16 over a rule. They race a SMOD and the vast majority truly believe that their boat's value is best preserved with a very tightly regulated class. You can argue the point all you want. The fact of life is that this portion of the cat racing public will consider the issue, especially when the top sailors make their choice. Good Luck declaring it a dead issue.

Bottom line.. the horse will not die for those consumers and it factors into their decision if the they want to move up to a spin boat class.

Your move!


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Mark Schneider] #212049
05/27/10 11:11 AM
05/27/10 11:11 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Mark, the -only- reason I bought into the F16 class was the flexability to race Uni or Sloop. If that option did not exist, ie. F18, I would have bought a used A cat instead. Not everyone has reliable crew, and not everyone wants to race the F18. The F16 class offers that flexability and really isn't concerned with grabbing fully crewed teams who are F18 compatible, size wise. If a big crew comes out of the H16 class looking for a spin boat, the F18 is the way to go. If instead it's a smaller pair, or parent/child, and they occaisionally want to race even when their crew is not available, the F16 is the only choice.

It really has nothing to do with worrying about some Racer X boat coming along and undercutting the class.


Blade F16
#777
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Timbo] #212050
05/27/10 11:13 AM
05/27/10 11:13 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
I keep my "racing boat" in pristine condition, that is, no Florida Sunlight, no bugs, no dirt, and I spend at least 3 hours washing and waxing it before I take it to any regatta. When I arrive at the regatta, I wash it again. Why? Because a bug might have splat itself on the bow. Call me Anal, I know I am when it comes to clean racing boats.

The Prindle is my back yard beach beater that is rougher than...well...it's rough, so no amount of Florida Sun can do any more damage to it. It's a great beater for when it's blowing 20 and I don't mind breaking stuff. The Blade however, breaking stuff on that boat gets expensive.

I just spent $450 for 1 new dagger board. The Prindle doesn't even have daggerboards, which is another reason I love it! The Blade is a Porche, the Prindle is a Mack Truck. Each has it's purpose and each is very good at what it was designed for.

If it makes you feel any better, I did rig up the Blade today and sailed it for an hour, 5 sets, douses, 20 gybes, 30 tacks, but the wind was light and by the time I got out it was after 5pm. Tomorrow I'll be out there early, all day, and on Friday I'm going to wash and wax it...again, then load it up for the trip to Cocoa early on Saturday. Why not Friday night? Because there are too many Love Bugs out on Friday afternoon, Saturday at 7am there won't be as many bugs to go splat on my clean racing boat so it will be easier to clean when I get there.

Hey, who's watching the Celtic-Magic series?? I am tonight.


Hi Timbo,

I must admit that I feel a bit dirty, if I read your post. I wax my boat one or two times per year. The only sweet water she sees is if it rains and at the end of last season I put the still wet sails with the tied battens in the bag and forgot it over the winter... we Europeans are a bit filthy blush

How does your wife deal with your passion for shine hulls?

Cheers,

Klaus

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Smiths_Cat] #212052
05/27/10 11:49 AM
05/27/10 11:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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I make her take a bath before she comes to bed...then I 'wax her bottom' until it's as shiney and smooth as my boat!

She is a bit jelous of my love for my boat I think. She tried to hit it when it was in the driveway once! She swore she didn't see it but how can you miss seeing a bright white boat on a trailer?? I know it was intentional. Luckily I saw her aiming at it and yelled so she stopped.

When she's really mad at me, she'll threaten to come to a regatta and ruin my fun!


Blade F16
#777
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Mark Schneider] #212054
05/27/10 11:56 AM
05/27/10 11:56 AM
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 976
France
pepin Offline
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France
Originally Posted by Mark Schneider
[...]The largest market of racers is the Hobie 16 class.[...]
Depends where you are. The H16 was the youth boat for a while in Europe (with a spi) but this is no longer the case. there is no adult H16 regata that I know of. I can't recall the last time I saw a H16 sailing in a regatta. Most H16 sailors are, at this point, recreational sailors.

The H16 is a fun but completely obsolete boat, even more so without a spi. Heck, the BHCCA (British Hobie Cat Class Association) is the RYA group training the top young cat teams in the UK. The youngest are training on Hobie Dragoon, the older are on not on hobies at all: they sail Spitfires. They do participate in the European H16 championships, but this is not their boat of choice. Their main goal is to get beefy enough to get on a F18.

Same in France, where the youth boat is the SL16, and no young racer will even consider buying a H16.

The US is a special case, with the huge fleets of obsolete H16 without spi. If you get your head out of your country you will see that the goal of the Viper is to provide an alternative to the F18 for the lighter crews who can't switch to the F18 and be competitive there. The H16 is never ever in the picture.

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Timbo] #212055
05/27/10 11:57 AM
05/27/10 11:57 AM
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 571
Hamburg
Smiths_Cat Offline
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Hamburg
Treat her carefully. She knows where she can hit you hard.

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Smiths_Cat] #212060
05/27/10 01:02 PM
05/27/10 01:02 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Yeah...I do sleep on my stomach these days!


Blade F16
#777
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: pepin] #212064
05/27/10 01:34 PM
05/27/10 01:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
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Pepin

In North America.. the largest one design fleet turnouts (not even nationals) are Hobie 16's. (In the 2010 season... See Madcatter Regatta..,. 35 plus boats. Next in line is the A class (midwinters... 30 or so boats... F18's are third at their Spring Fever regional. Hardly Obsolete! ...and my essential point is... that if you want to attract racers from cat racing classes... then you need to address their issues....

Sounds like the target market is quite a bit more fractured in the EU and you don't need to market to Hobie 16 sailors. The risk of course is that the EU scene fractures some more with lots of 16 foot one design classes fighting for market share and occasionally agreeing to level racing under the F16 umbrella.

Calling a CLASS obsolete is not right. Fact of the matter.. in North America ... THE CLASS of Hobie 16's is probably the best organized class going and they generate the best turnouts. Fact is... they are the leader in North America cat racing and quite strong in other parts of the world as well. The need for a two person non spin boat race cat is clear in the North American market. Notice that there are lots of non spin dinghy classes that are quite old as well which meet the needs of dinghy sailors.
Perhaps the word you were looking for is Classic?


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Wouter] #212067
05/27/10 02:15 PM
05/27/10 02:15 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 954
Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
Mark P Offline
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Mumbles Y.C Wales U.K
A couple of weeks ago I was competing at the UK A Class National Championships. It was a fantastic event and the racing was really close amongst the whole fleet, well the winner was in a Class of his own with 5 Bullets and a DNC. However, and my point is I was on a 2006 Bimare AJ which is made from GRP and not Carbon. Did I or any of the other competitors notice. NO, did it effect my results, I doubt it. I lead a race at one point, and was last but one at one point. The major factor for my performance was me and definitely not the construction of the platform. I have now vowed to become more consistent whilst racing a series of this nature and the only way this will happen is time on the water. Although, a DNA would be nice.

Last edited by Mark P; 05/27/10 02:25 PM.

MP*MULTIHULLS
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Wouter] #212075
05/27/10 03:55 PM
05/27/10 03:55 PM
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Australia
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Originally Posted by Wouter
Quote

Could it also be the "nut on the tiller" doing the work.



Of course, that is why all this "US$40K class killer" nonsense is such BS.

In the overall scheme of things, material choice is an almost negligliable factor. It comes well behind other factors like sailor skill, the boxrule limits, sailcut, luck, etc.

That is the core argument of these posts.


I would have loved to the faces of those crews laying down 35k and for that "all-carbon miracle" and then finding themselves trailing behind a much smaller plain glass/alu cat costing less then half their purchase cost. Can't say that they weren't warned, we've seen this happen several times before with the M20's and F18's.

Wouter


Wouter: can you honestly say that Bundy on a built to the rule F16 would not thrash the **** out of his identical twin on a standard Viper?

If you think it makes no difference then why allow it to even be an option to build such a boat if all it serves is to increase the expenses??



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Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: macca] #212079
05/27/10 04:36 PM
05/27/10 04:36 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Wouter: can you honestly say that Bundy on a built to the rule F16 would not thrash the [censored] out of his identical twin on a standard Viper?



Are you asking me if Darren or Carolijn on say a 19.200 Euro glass/alu/carbon mast (thus min. weight) Falcon F16 (19.800 USD) would beat a 17.750 Euro glass/alu/F18 parts (thus 129 kg) Viper F16 ? That is when both are sailed by their identical twin ?

Yes, I do think that that Falcon would give its crew an egde over the Viper crew, although not at all an extremely large edge. Also note that I could have used the Aussie Blade or Stealth in this example.

What I do contest however is that such a full-to-rule-F16 is anything other then sub 20K in purchase price (as proven by the quotes) and is therefor on a par with a competitive F18. Thus putting the lie that a full-to-the-rule-F16 is anywhere near 35K or whatever the latest scare quote is.

I also claim that this situation is solely the cause of a business decision on the side of AHPC and not any fundamental flaw in the F16 class rules. Hell, what do you expect when using F18 components on a F16 design ? If 3 builders can do it compared to 1 who can't then the norm is definately with the first 3 and the F16 class rules.

Still I think the difference is surprisingly small. Weight is not such an important issue on these boats as is also proven by the large spread in competive crew weights.



Quote

If you think it makes no difference then why allow it to even be an option to build such a boat if all it serves is to increase the expenses??



Obviously you have it all backwards. Obviously, these full-to-the-rule-F16's were already available for sub 20K expenses when the Viper F16 was launched. Therefore the F16 class doesn't allow a lighter boat to be build and raced relative to the norm but rather it allows a heavier boat then the norm to be build and raced i.e. the Viper. The effect on purchase price is negligiable as the quotes show. The customer knows this before he signs the purchase contract and he is always allowed to disadvantage himself if he wants to. Why on earth would any class outlaw sub optimal designs from racing ? The only crew suffering here is the guy who knowingly chose to buy the suboptimal boat. He can just as easily buy another design without this disadvantage. Hell, I have suboptimal boat myself (according to you that is) and am very content accepting the disadvantage which I perceive to be minimal at best.


Having said all this I truly believe that we are nitpicking here. Boatweight and platform stiffness are not big factors in the overall performance of a modern spinaker catamaran. Some of you are making far too much of these factors. The secret of the F16's is in the carefully balanced design ratio's and these are largely unaffected by material choices. An expensive lesson that some overhyped-and-overpriced-all-carbon N20 crews learned recently at the North Sea Regatta (as several M20 crews did before them). I'll bet they were very pleased when the race committed allowed Brouwer/Bundock to start with the F18 fleet after the first few races in the open class. Could have been a promotional disaster for these new 20 footers.


By the way, have you found that F17 measurement form yet ?

Wouter

Last edited by Wouter; 05/27/10 04:59 PM.

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Wouter] #212090
05/27/10 07:42 PM
05/27/10 07:42 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter
......on say a 19.200 Euro glass/alu/carbon mast (thus min. weight) Falcon F16 (19.800 USD).....


How does knocking five pounds out of the boat get the Falcon to minimum again?


Originally Posted by Wouter
Thus putting the lie that a full-to-the-rule-F16 is anywhere near 35K or whatever the latest scare quote is.


Thats what I was quoted.

Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #212106
05/28/10 02:49 AM
05/28/10 02:49 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

Thats what I was quoted.



Quoted by whom ?

Wouter


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #212109
05/28/10 03:08 AM
05/28/10 03:08 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
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If weight was not such an issue, then why do sailors (who know a thing or two about sailing) scrape to remove every gram they can to get as close to min weight as possible....... And F16 sailors believe 18 kg makes no difference.

If platform stiffness is not critical, then why do teams re-beam their boats when they start to get a little sloppy. Marstrom hulls will near on last a life time. All you need to do is re-beam them every now and then to keep them competitive. Taipan 4.9 sailors often re-beam old boats to try and restore platform rigidity. Small beam Tornado sailors over the years have re-beamed their boats with bigger, stiffer beams. AHPC in the last few years of the Capricorn production produced new beams of slightly better alloy quality, thicker side walls, slightly larger diameter and thicker webbing, all to increase stiffness (Brett could you confirm this).

So is weight and platform stiffness really important or are the F16 sailors right and some of our world’s best sailors have no clue.

The nut behind the tiller will always make the biggest impact. I have seen Mossies regularly beat a classic rigger tornado around the course, but I sure as hell know which is the quicker boat. In big fleet racing, a boat length difference here and there or a few degrees deeper can make a big difference to the overall result. So, should the sailing be only about the sailor, or should you allow the boat to also contribute to the result.


Re: I bid an US$ 100.000 class killer. [Re: Wouter] #212128
05/28/10 07:10 AM
05/28/10 07:10 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Wouter
Quoted by whom ?


I cannot divulge that information at this time as it may compromise our agents in the field........ laugh

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