If the line is established by a boat on port tack as he moves up the course close hauled - technically no side of the start line is favored...right? I mean as long as the mark is pretty square to the starting area.

but what if there's more pressure on the right?

I was talking about the bias of the start line (when a static, mostly perpendicular, line is skewed). The course is a different matter.

If you think you have more pressure on the right... you start late and tack onto port right away.


Dan.... Would you care to comment on the upcoming F18 starts and how appropriate a rabbit start might be...

The F18's and the 16's are the only US fleets large enough to warrant a switch. (assuming the politics of a change could be worked out)

My opinion is NO RABBIT START AT NATIONALS! Starting is a skill and those that do it better deserve to be rewarded.

Hmm... would you have the same point of view if you were put out of racing for a day with your rudders taken off... or a hole in your boat.

Near as I can tell watching the 505's... there is a real skill to be starting at speed on the butt of the gate boat. LOTS of boats were late and crossing seconds back.

What I did not see was boat damage... even in big breeze.

Just to see if we have the same objective.
Ding.... with 50 F18's... how long of a start line should be set?

Enough line so everyone in the fleet should be able to get a place on the first row and hold it.... the start is a skill but NOT the dominant skill.

or

It's a jungle out there.... three rows of boats deep sorts the men from the boys...

It would take quite a bit to get used to from what we are doing now. Upside is there is no second row starters unless a bunch of boats try to go behind the Rabbit all at the same time. The 505s have been doing it forever and they seem to like it okay. I am not familiar enough with it to know what the leeward boat tries to do to the windward boat.

We can start 7 boats in practice racing with a Rabbit and it works out well. We all know that we are all even after the start so we can work on boatspeed and handling.

I like the dynamics of a gate style start-line that may be a bit skewed depending on conditions, may not be quite big enough for everyone to get a good start, and which you have to make many determinations before the start.

I think the Rabbit will lead to a "fairer" start for more boats though. This method would be good for people not accustomed to big fleet starts.

I have done both and it comes down to "I just want to race".

Later,
Dan

I can affirmatively say there will be no rabbit starts at the F18 North Americans next week - unless the competitors overwhelmingly want it. I don't see that happening.

The staring line will be approximately 1,250 ft (300 meters / 0.20 nm) long (56 x 18 x 1.25). Longer if the conditions warrant (big breeze / waves / adverse current [yes, there are currents on the Great Lakes])

We will be using a boat as the pin. There will be four sets of eyes on the line - two primary spotters and two backups.

That is not the longest line I've had to call.

Hi Matt

Certainly not advocating any changes coming up... My point is... sailors should take a look at the rabbit start and then look at the big F18 start and CONSIDER the gate starts while you are there. (If you don't ask the question... you don't get people to take a fair look and then you get knee jerk or uninformed opinions)

My hunch is... many sailors will go WOW... that's a long line! ... (because local PRO's are not following that formula). I lost this argument for last years Alter cup line length... (Its even more vital in an open class start)

When both starts are conducted properly (Rabbit for 3 minutes and standard 300 m line... ... everyone gets a fair start.

However, when you tell a PRO to set that length of line...300 meters.... they get about half way there and then their dinghy mentality takes over and they drop the pin. This is what most of us are used to at the local level!

THEN you have to fight to not be on the second row... in breeze... can you say bumper boats. A Cats are VERY sensitive to this issue and usually blame the #%#%% sailors... not the RC for the stress test that is a race start!

At the minimum.... the F18 will KNOW what length of line is fair for their turnouts.....

Mark this is what we have be working for!!! Big fleets big starts and for f#ck sake Mark this isn't my first rodeo. We had 50+ F18's at Virgina Beach in 05 and not a single boat was holed and every rudder managed to stay on. You act like 50 boats is a scary large number and nobody will survive, it aint a big deal quit making it something it's not.

That formula comes right out of the US Sailing Race Management Manual. It applies to all boats, not just catamarans.

The problem with a line that long is people tend to bunch up at the ends - especially if you're using an "I" flag as the prep. People in the middle of the line that are OCS are "more" penalized by having to sail to one of the ends in order to start properly - as opposed to someone at the end who could just spin around the pin. That's why more and more PROs are using the "Z" flag (20% penalty)instead. It penalizes everyone who is OCS equally - and the penalty sticks, even if there's a general recall, making you think real hard about being aggressive on the re-start.

Dave... FIRST its a suggestion. Serious racers with big fleets use this system and swear buy it... not just prefer it... SWEAR BY IT... A colleague got me to look at it and I was impressed... take a look at the video.

Second, its about FAIR STARTS for the fleet.... it's not about hand to hand combat on a "too short line"...

Third its always about safety... unless you think the entire fleet is expert at boat handling... (You have no worries about the line for the f18's... boat handling by the fleet.. Ihave no clue.

Fourth... change is good... change adds spice to your life...the heartburn you feel.... its all in your mind (grin)

Finally..... all 50 boats (F18 or Hobie 16's) will have to be passed ...no worries... the joy of a big fleet will not be missed!... Now, That OCS you swallow because at 300 meters away... you are not going to hear your number.... will be 51 points...

Just making a point!

I did not take Mark's question as a "we need to change" moment, but as a can we think and discuss the options and why we choose them proposition.

It is a good question to ponder. Will we change our way of doing business, probably not. After successfully discussing this notion there are plenty of other questions that may be brought forth with the proof that we can get through a simple tête-à-tête like this. If we can have a simple discussion as Rabbit Starts, which I do not believe will change any time soon, it may encourage some of the tougher queries in the future.

Think, Encourage, Provoke,
Dan DeLave

Mark I know it's just a suggestion, and my reply to the rabbit start is that it takes away a part of the game that I enjoy. I'm sure some "serious racers" have a similar opinion.

The whole safety thing is a red herring and you know it.

Heck almost all the regatta's I go to now don't even attempt to call out numbers for OCS, and that's small fleet starts. You either know where you are or you don't, it aint rocket science.

Point taken, just don't agree with it... gawd it's good to finally be back to normal. Agreeing with you was getting freaking old!

IMO, the only time a rabbit start should be used is when even the "black flag" won't allow a start to get off. Other than that it's a start for sissies.

I love it.

I mean, I can see a rabbit start if you're out sailing with a bunch of friends, with no race committee, on a fun beer-drinking weekend and you're going to race up around 3-tree island (which now only has two trees on it) and back. Like Dave, however, I feel like the strategy at the start on a static line is a big part of the game...and one I've been sucking at lately.

This is the issue!

If starts are a big part of the game... We should run events like college dinghy regattas with 20 minute races... and then restart (yeah)!.

We should schedule regattas with 20 races... not 7 or 10.

We should set short lines so that fighting for and holding your place is at a premium in this game.
30 years ago...a regatta was three races... each about 2 to 2.5 hours longs.... winning was based on 2 plus hours of a race to follow and not the 2 minutes before and after a start .... Sailboat racing was about about sailing... not starting.

Racing evolved to shorten the race because, for the most part the finish positions, were set after 45 minutes of sailing. The negative effect was to put more of a premium on starting and the first beat.... Then we started adding all of the starting penalties, Black flag, Around the ends, etc etc.
Then we started with protests of the race committee for some error on their part. Hell, the A cat Worlds in FL heard a protest on the RC from Booth who was called OCS which reversed the RC and affected the final results. Races are settled in the Protest Room over STARTING ISSUES... NOT on the race course.

The 505's are running 90 minute races with 120 boats and they have a score sheet with NO OCS's and no drama at the starting line or the protest room. They are running a sailboat race... not a starting race. The winners are determined by boat speed, handling and sailing shifts and pressure. The Protest Committee does not deal with starting issues. At the local level... they keep the rabbit starts when they can because it's practice for their Worlds...

We should consider the rabbit start for large fleets because it promotes fair sailing over fair starting.

Jake,

You cannot be OCS on a gate start in the same way as the gate boat opens the line.

The start tactics are different .

Instead of choosing a place on a STATIC line; you choose a place on a line you do not quite know were it is going to be

Instead of holding a stationary position on static line; you fight for a place in the area you want to be to start where you judge the line to be.

Instead if choosing where on the line to start based on wind pattern and bends you also have to consider the speed of the gate boat and if the gate boat is on a header or lift.


Would I want to be the gate boat? Nope…….

what if the rabbit boat was a bad apple - he could have a "header" right toward his competition.

Maybe a good solution for a *downwind* start... I don't see why it wouldn't work. Rabbit starts under spi on port and everyone duck him on starboard, also with the spi up. Could be spectacular

then they get out of the way; remember the rabbit has rights...