| Why Nacra can and should compete #220891 10/05/10 01:05 PM 10/05/10 01:05 PM |
Joined: Sep 2009 Posts: 22 Nacrasailor OP
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Posts: 22 | They did well in helping errect the F18 class [by building boats to the class rules], they tried the F20 class, not sure how compliant the F20C is to the rules
could be a good thing to the F16 class if they build an F16
oh and btw I love the look of the F20C, they will carry that over is what I hearded
Last edited by Nacrasailor; 10/05/10 01:06 PM.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Nacrasailor]
#220892 10/05/10 01:17 PM 10/05/10 01:17 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Mike Krantz has bought a F20. The guy knows his stuff and that's recommendation enough for me. I'm sure they'll be fine.
A Nacra F16 would be a wonderful addition to the line imo.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Nacrasailor]
#220906 10/05/10 03:17 PM 10/05/10 03:17 PM |
Joined: Nov 2005 Posts: 141 mini
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Posts: 141 | They did well in helping errect the F18 class [by building boats to the class rules], they tried the F20 class, not sure how compliant the F20C is to the rules
could be a good thing to the F16 class if they build an F16
oh and btw I love the look of the F20C, they will carry that over is what I hearded Come on now lose the rose colored glasses. Nacra virtually single handedly kept the F18 class from happening in the US for years. They kept pushing their I 18 with a larger sail plan and it took a long time and extra effort by a few dedicated individuals to finally convince enough people to buy into the F18 concept here in the states. There is what 5 or 6 versions of the 17 (F class ???) 3 versions of the 6.0, at least 2 for the 5.5 and 5.2 each. The new âFâ 20 is not built to any rule it is just a distance racer to compete heads up with the M20. No bashing of boats here, but Nacra has a pretty distinguished history of not supporting class racing. There is potential for them to really help the class, we can only hope their product if they choose to make one, it represents well. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: mini]
#220932 10/05/10 06:05 PM 10/05/10 06:05 PM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 110 Devon
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Posts: 110 | Nacra has the 16square, I believe before they kill that class and enter the F16 market, which will happen one day but at the moment what will happen is the current 16sq. will be modernised, it will have a square top instead of the current pin head and a asmetrical spinaker added, still a 1 up cat, and in saying this I raced against one recently where the nacra people were and it had the spinaker conversion, it performed well and the changes would be inexpensive, so dont hold your breath, as for hobie, its a business and if they can make money then they will produce the goods, but it will be at cost of the hobie 16 and i cant see that happening, perhaps a upgrade to the existing models which would be cheap an worthwhile without killing the class, especially at the current ecenomic times | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Gilo]
#221219 10/07/10 03:08 PM 10/07/10 03:08 PM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 606 Maryland Kris Hathaway
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Posts: 606 Maryland | It's an open formula class. If it is strong, healthy, and growing then any manufacturer or home builder would be remiss not to consider having an interest in it. We really have only 2 options presently in the US. Both of which I admire. If one pulls out or there is a merger, it is a single manufacturer. Whereas, if a "big box" builder joins; odds are the additional marketing effort will bring even more boats to the class and all 3+ vendors would enjoy increased sales. Sort of like the restaurant park idea. For Nacra or Hobie, it may be more about not loosing sales to an attractive alternative to their SMOD products.
The era of formula classes is upon us!
Kris Hathaway | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Kris Hathaway]
#221328 10/09/10 10:03 AM 10/09/10 10:03 AM |
Joined: Nov 2003 Posts: 98 TedZ
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Posts: 98 | Humm Nacra 16? That wasn't on their webpage last week. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Stewart]
#221334 10/09/10 11:02 AM 10/09/10 11:02 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | They'd better do their homework and send their top drivers! Imo, this is very, very good for the F16 class. If they get on the water by spring, they'll be well sorted by September Nationals at WRSC! Things keep looking better
Last edited by pgp; 10/09/10 12:13 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Rolf_Nilsen]
#221340 10/09/10 01:26 PM 10/09/10 01:26 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | There you go. Now why worry..
"Good for the class" no doubt is a very personal idea. Hi Rolf! Why would I be worried and how is this bad for the class?
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#221359 10/10/10 04:46 AM 10/10/10 04:46 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 9,582 North-West Europe Wouter
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I think this was something that was always a possibility and to some extent the intent. I know that I was involved with the F16's to build a better mouse trap and what better way to define succes then to see the scene converge on the F16 idea.
I'm excited by the prospect but also guarded. On the other hand I have full confidence that the F16 class will keep her rudder straight. By God, she has shown that many times over the last years. The rules are simple and clear; the playing is level for all builders and the performance between boats (even with a little extra weight) is well balanced. Any builder building to the rules is warmly welcomed and if any plays a game of forcing through rule changes to their own liking then they'll get the cold shoulder. In short the F16 class is both clear and just and garantuees a stable class to all builders.
Beyond that I'm anxious to see what Nacra comes up with. Lets give them the benefit of the doubt; it could also be something very good !
Wouter
Wouter Hijink Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild) The Netherlands
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: PTP]
#221378 10/10/10 12:04 PM 10/10/10 12:04 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Patrick, I don't see it. I sail against the best and newest frequently. The margin shrinks as my ineptitude shrinks. I actually beat people occassionally.
Honestly, I believe we will only see small, gradual gains in boat perfromance and that will come primarily through weight reduction.
It's really gonna hit the fan when the factories and rock stars realize that in some light air, flat water conditions a sloop doesn't stand a chance against a uni rig. Following that reasoning, when a world class sailor/athlete about 6' 3" and 215 lbs shows up, he will own the class!
Last edited by pgp; 10/10/10 12:30 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: PTP]
#221387 10/10/10 08:19 PM 10/10/10 08:19 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | It will be great for the class although I think it will maybe start 'out dating' some boats? I hope it outdates everything out there. I hope it sets a new standard by raising the bar. I hope it pushes Falcon Marine, and AHPC to pump out a better boats. I only say it because it seems like there has been a lot of turnover in the f18 class. Not really, the Tiger ran for a looooong time. Capricorn was around 4-5years? Infusion has been around quite a while as well. The nice thing with new boats is somebody always has to have the latest and greatest, (with only a marginal performance gain), and it puts used boats on the market, making them more affordable to people.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#221392 10/10/10 09:18 PM 10/10/10 09:18 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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I hope it outdates everything out there. I hope it sets a new standard by raising the bar. I hope it pushes Falcon Marine, and AHPC to pump out a better boats.
I don't know about that. Nacra isn't going to produce a product significantly better than Falcon Marine at the same cost and same weight. Not going to happen. I think Matt makes great boats and I would take his Falcon over a Viper or the Nacra boat (although it is hard to say... I would go with a Falcon over the Nacra if the Nacra weighs in well over the minimum). Vectorworks/Falcon Marine customer service is a lot better than Nacra's IMO. Don't have much experience personally with AHPC. On a different level... I would not wish badness on the people who actually had the balls to start producing the boats that invented the F16 class. It is only due to Matt/Vectorworks/Falcon that this class actually exists in the US.
Last edited by PTP; 10/10/10 09:22 PM.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: PTP]
#221393 10/10/10 09:42 PM 10/10/10 09:42 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | no ill will wished dude! I'm not saying either boat is poor, but you, Matt, or Greg can't say there isn't room for improvement.
I just want the F16 to be all that it can be and competition amongst the builders is a good way to spur development. That's the nature of just about any business, keep up with the competition or get left behind.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#221396 10/10/10 10:04 PM 10/10/10 10:04 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | no ill will wished dude! I'm not saying either boat is poor, but you, Matt, or Greg can't say there isn't room for improvement.
I just want the F16 to be all that it can be and competition amongst the builders is a good way to spur development. That's the nature of just about any business, keep up with the competition or get left behind. I hear you. I want development and improvement too, but I do want to give some props to the "founders" and the people who can produce quality boats in the US at minimum weight. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: macca]
#221410 10/11/10 05:01 AM 10/11/10 05:01 AM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | No. The class is about sailing, and limited developement.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: pgp]
#221437 10/11/10 09:42 AM 10/11/10 09:42 AM |
Joined: Jul 2007 Posts: 439 Memphis, TN mikeborden
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Posts: 439 Memphis, TN | Banana boards are currently not allowed, but it might be about time to rethink that one....
Viper USA 132
1984 Hobie 18
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: macca]
#221442 10/11/10 10:43 AM 10/11/10 10:43 AM |
Joined: Oct 2009 Posts: 12 smv
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Posts: 12 | But isnt the F16 class all about allowing development??
curved boards are cool!! I hope this isn't an indication that Nacra plans to build a 16 that is 'almost' F16 compliant, or builds a boat with the hopes that class rules will simply bend to allow for their boat to fit into the box. As an interested outsider planning to pick up an F16 sometime in the next year I'd like to comment on what interests me about the class. It's not the development. That's what the A class is for. If I wanted to get into a full on development class I would get an A cat. What interests me is the flexibility the class offers to me as a sailor; one up or two up is class legal, has a kite and I should be able to right the boat by myself. On top of these fine attributes is the box rule which limits development so some degree. If I wanted to get into a development class, again, I'd buy an A cat. I don't, and my guess is that most current and perspective F16 owners don't either. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: macca]
#221451 10/11/10 11:36 AM 10/11/10 11:36 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 893 waynemarlow
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Posts: 893 | But they are very expensive to design, develop and build, to the point that they would be prohibitive for pretty much all the current builders and thats not the point really.. No thats not quite the case, all the development cost has now been spent on the F20, to integrate that knowledge now into a slightly smaller boat is very minimal and it would spread the cost over more boats. With modern CNC mills cutting out the moulds, its almost irrelavent whether the board is curved or straight and equally the cost is not significantly higher to produce, a mould is a mould. But would I want to see them in the F16 class, not right now, perhaps in the future when all the development has taken place in the A's and other classes and we understand them better. One thing for sure the performance of the F16's is only going to be marginally better with curved boards and greater gains could be found in other functions of design. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: smv]
#221453 10/11/10 12:01 PM 10/11/10 12:01 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | Contact CRAW. You might be able to get connected. Hopefully some of those folks will be able to sneak away for Tradewinds/Jan., Charlotte Harbor/Feb., and/or GYC/Apr.
Cheers!
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Gilo]
#221467 10/11/10 07:28 PM 10/11/10 07:28 PM |
Joined: Feb 2008 Posts: 242 Brisveagas Aido
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Posts: 242 Brisveagas | Gill, Nacra is definitely working on a boat. They would not be certain of a release date I suspect. 18 months minimum is my guess.
My bet is it will have a 104 texel rating.
I could of course be completely wrong on all counts.
Aido Viper 288
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#221470 10/11/10 08:01 PM 10/11/10 08:01 PM |
Joined: Apr 2004 Posts: 7 Hawaii, USA barrylay
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Posts: 7 Hawaii, USA | [quote=PTP]it puts used boats on the market, making them more affordable to people. Yes, I have been looking for an affordable used boat and can't find one, especially considering the extra shipping here to Hawaii. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: smv]
#221474 10/11/10 08:30 PM 10/11/10 08:30 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | Ann Arbor, MI. Not ready yet, just spent a huge chunk of my F16 fund on a surgery for my dog... but, I've got the winter to build that fund back up! Who are you? I was in Ann Arbor a couple of weekends ago with a Viper. (edit)- Also currently in CRAW we have a used Blade, Falcon, and Viper available. I'm not sure the age of the Blade, but the Falcon was new last spring, and the Viper hasn't even hit the US yet, and I can get you a new Viper as well.
Last edited by Karl_Brogger; 10/11/10 09:11 PM.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: waynemarlow]
#221833 10/18/10 04:33 AM 10/18/10 04:33 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
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No thats not quite the case, all the development cost has now been spent on the F20, to integrate that knowledge now into a slightly smaller boat is very minimal and it would spread the cost over more boats. Wayne, If you seriously think that the development done on the F20 foils will negate any development costs for a curved foil for an F16 then i'm sorry to tell you this: You have no idea what you are on about! With modern CNC mills cutting out the moulds, its almost irrelavent whether the board is curved or straight and equally the cost is not significantly higher to produce, a mould is a mould. I can tell you from experience that the cost to build a mold for a curved board is a much more complex process and the costs are a lot higher in all steps, design, billet, cutting time, finishing, and even foil production. If you have a cheaper way then please let me know.. One thing for sure the performance of the F16's is only going to be marginally better with curved boards and greater gains could be found in other functions of design. And you base this assumption on your extensive experience with both straight and curved foils?? I can tell you from my time with both foils that there is nothing in current technology that makes as much difference to the performance of a boat that the change from straight to curved foils. If all else is equal (ie sail area and dimensions of the boat etc) then the curved foils make a bigger gain in performance than any other feature. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: macca]
#221838 10/18/10 06:24 AM 10/18/10 06:24 AM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 221 Netherlands Hans_Ned_111
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Posts: 221 Netherlands | And you base this assumption on your extensive experience with both straight and curved foils?? I can tell you from my time with both foils that there is nothing in current technology that makes as much difference to the performance of a boat that the change from straight to curved foils. If all else is equal (ie sail area and dimensions of the boat etc) then the curved foils make a bigger gain in performance than any other feature. Well this is not completly thru. We are experimenting a lot with both configurations ( straight and curved ) and to be honest which type will be really quicker we still do not now. It depends a lot on the conditions ( wind , wave ). We do know for sure that in light wind the curved boards are definitly slower then straight boards. Hans | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: pepin]
#221935 10/18/10 04:15 PM 10/18/10 04:15 PM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 893 waynemarlow
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Posts: 893 | No matter what foils you put on, straight put on at an angle or curved with or without twist the thing I don't get is how do you control the foiling (even if it is only partial foiling).
The F20 never foils as such, its not designed to do that, the C boards are there to give a minimum lift to slightly reduce wetted surface area of the hull, that minimum lift clearly can be seen when in the video with the rear down to give max angle of attack, the boat raises only a few centimetres and then when the angle of attack becomes too much, the boat settles down in the water. Note how much speed was lost from the very draggy foil at max angle of attack. There has been some discussion within the A's as to its merits and failures and in what conditions they do work. As much as Macca states the A is not comparable, sorry but the boat speeds are not unsimilar and that is what produces the lift regardless of how much horsepower you throw at getting that speed. This boats speed is probably as much from modern hull design learnt from the Americas cup as from its C boards, the boards are simply not big enough to foil and the boat too heavy to allow true foiling. As with all things though there is a down side to foils ( as per the foiling C Cat experiment ), the C boards will magnify and slow the boat through additional drag as soon as they are not in optimum AOA and my guess it will be slower in the lessor sailors hands than one with simple straight boards as they will not have the experiance to know how to balance the boat as well as the pros can. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Seeker]
#221955 10/18/10 07:15 PM 10/18/10 07:15 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | Macca it is too bad you have "pissed in the sandbox" so many times... Yeah, he certainly will be in any discussion I have about Nacra with someone who doesn't know any better. especially when it comes to someone ever wanting to buy a supposed nacra f16 if one ever comes. Nothing like a company crapping on a class that they want to sell boats to. Seems odd that people are getting on the F16's sailor's cases for chiming in on the main forum. A factory rep from a company that doesn't make an F16 repeatedly crapping on the F16 class. Not one of the guys on the main forum would put up with that either. BTW macca, can I quote you that the boards for the F20C will be 120% of an infusion board? so, Murray's price is 450$ which would make the F20C board 540$. I think that is actually reasonable, though I doubt this will be the case.
Last edited by PTP; 10/18/10 07:19 PM.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: PTP]
#221957 10/18/10 07:40 PM 10/18/10 07:40 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | I think that is actually reasonable, though I doubt this will be the case. Me too, not much more than an AHPC board.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Seeker]
#221967 10/18/10 08:46 PM 10/18/10 08:46 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | How many people go to their job expecting to break even at the end of the day? own your own company? I'm happy if I break even at the end of the day. Ecstatic if I make money.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: Seeker]
#221970 10/18/10 09:30 PM 10/18/10 09:30 PM |
Joined: Aug 2005 Posts: 2,921 Michigan PTP
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Posts: 2,921 Michigan | I certainly don't expect people to work for free, although I have to about 20% of the time. and this is likely to go up. I don't expect nacra to work for free... just "truth in advertising" is necessary. besides, it is macca representing nacra. He needs to realize who is the customer. It is us, so why would he always piss us off? because he doesn't know what the hell he is doing. Yes, a good sailor, but not a good salesman.
Last edited by PTP; 10/18/10 09:43 PM.
| | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: waynemarlow]
#222017 10/19/10 09:42 AM 10/19/10 09:42 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 1,021 Australia macca
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Posts: 1,021 Australia | Using the Orma 60 footers and AC cup boats are a poor example, the C Cats and A Cats are probably the most developed of the boats using C Foils nearest our water line length and they really are not convinced.
The other factor no one really has mentioned yet is what happens in normal sailing wind speeds around the, 8 -12 knots band, small foils such as the F20 uses are in no mans land, neither creating enough lift to reduce wetted surface and yet must be creating drag, ( you cannot get lift without creating drag ), I do accept there must be benefit once boat speed gets to a point but in general that cannot be the norm. I do accept that the T foils on the Stealth for example can sort of defy logic.
I am a foil convertee however and I do believe all new design boats will go down this path and the more the likes of the AC and C Cats develop the foils we can only benefit in the smaller, size wise, classes. Wayne, you just keep coming back with stuff that's simply wrong! The F20C is performing at its biggest advantage in the 8-12kt range. The foils are working to lift the boat and the leeway is minimal. As an Example here are some time from a recent regatta in NED:- Wind 8-10kts 3 laps W/L 1st. F20c elapsed time:- 44.39 2nd. F18 elapsed time:- 54.30 I was there and can tell you the worst thing about the F20c's performance in that race was the long wait for the rest of the F18's to finish! Did you see Steve Clark's boat in the first race in Newport? (before the crash..) that thing was smoking fast.. And to discount the development in bigger boats seems a little silly, There have been a lot of things developed in the AC that scale down very well, Have a look at the Hulls on the F20C and compare them to the floats on USA17. | | | Re: Why Nacra can and should compete
[Re: macca]
#222030 10/19/10 10:56 AM 10/19/10 10:56 AM |
Joined: Sep 2005 Posts: 893 waynemarlow
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Posts: 893 | [quote=waynemarlow And to discount the development in bigger boats seems a little silly, There have been a lot of things developed in the AC that scale down very well, Have a look at the Hulls on the F20C and compare them to the floats on USA17.
Macca read the posts carefully, to repeat myself "I am a foil convertee however and I do believe all new design boats will go down this path and the more the likes of the AC and C Cats develop the foils we can only benefit in the smaller, size wise, classes ". Yes the F20c's appears a fast boat ( sort of remember that it didn't do so well at the 3 Piers race this year ) but how much of that is hull shape, a combination of hull shape and foil or just the foils alone. I guess time will tell us one way or other. | | |
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