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Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225456
12/15/10 03:26 AM
12/15/10 03:26 AM
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 432
McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
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Simon C Offline
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McCrae Y.C. Mornington Peninsu...
Where I sail a few of the lads were out on the wire down wind well before taking delivery of their new DNA's. The DNA's are a pretty sexy looking boat, particularly from behind, which of course is the view I mostly see eek


Simon
Taipan AUS341
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Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225460
12/15/10 09:30 AM
12/15/10 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Yes, the A class guys can be a bit like Lemmings, however do you really think there is no significant difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer?

As for the DNA, some of the best are convinced. Ashby so much that he got himself one despite his production of ASGs. What does that say. He does not want to be beaten by Brewin on a DNA. From what I have heard over here, the DNA guys are now trapping downwind. The platform has allowed them to do this in reasonable breeze where as it was too dangerous before hand.

There will always be those who jump towards the trend manufacture, however every now and then a manufacture will raise the bar a notch and others will have to follow suit or slide out the back door.

Many here keep rushing to “the sailor makes the biggest difference” which is true, but if you were investing, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage. Why should you have to sail better than the next guy to equal his performance.

New designs have and will come out, they will be quicker and over time. It may happen with gradual change or you may see a leap from one manufacturer. So really, how many people here disagree?


I am not claiming that there is not a significant difference in the 2 designs. And I would also rather be on the newer design than the older. If you had like age/condition boats and identical foils and rig though, the ultimate difference (across the whole range of conditions) would be such that normal mistakes and sailing errors for almost every sailor would outweigh the potential to drive the boat easier.

Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago. The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind.

The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience.

It’s the age old dilemma with formula/box classes. What you really are proposing is 1 design racing. Or, we all buy the newest design each year- which is what typically happens with a select group within each class. The F18 guys work overtime trying to tell the world they are all equal and the A class works hard to promote the designer and development. Both have strong level racing across the fleet. – why?

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225497
12/16/10 01:48 AM
12/16/10 01:48 AM

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thricebitten
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Originally Posted by Matt M
The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind.


Hey it's back to the future shocked Mossies made this development over 12 years ago, basicaly no difference to upwind speed, but much more power down wind. Improved speed around the course dramaticaly. cool

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225499
12/16/10 05:14 AM
12/16/10 05:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Tornado_ALIVE  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Matt M
Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago


Correct, however it was not considered fast / too risky.

Originally Posted by Matt M
The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but


Whilst the new rigs will make an impact, the platform has played a part as well. Trapping downwind requires a reasonable about of breeze to make it beneficial. The old platforms were a bit hairy when the breeze picked up and sailors would shift to keeping the boat flat with both hulls in the water to keep the bows out. The DNA has quite a bit more volume and with the adjustable curved boards can be pushed much harder downwind in breeze i.e. trapping downwind.

Please note, I do not have firsthand experience with this, just what I have heard from A Class sailors.


Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225500
12/16/10 05:20 AM
12/16/10 05:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2003
Posts: 1,669
Melbourne, Australia
Tornado_ALIVE Offline
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Melbourne, Australia
Originally Posted by Matt M
The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience.


Ashby's company builds the ASGs. When AHPC shifted boat production offshore, one of their boat builders moved over to build boats for Ashby. (Ashby started of as an AHPC sailmaker before going out on his own). It would not supprise me if Ashby bought the DNA to have a good look at it before bringing out the next ASG design. Nacra had a good look at the Capricorns and Tigers when designing the Infusion.


Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225510
12/16/10 10:12 AM
12/16/10 10:12 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
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Matt M  Offline
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Very interesting to note design trends.
For years the A class has been pioneering multi hull design with things like the reverse bows and volume changes. There has always been a rather fast paced evolution in this class due to the constant model changes and development/experimentation inherent in the class. By comparison other classes used to be relatively stagnant.

This is not so much the case anymore. New models and development in the F18 and F16 etc are coming fast and furious. New hull designs, rig and sail evolution etc.

The A class who recently were following the narrow hull shapes lines are now adopting trends taken from the fat boy classes where faster, easier driven hulls are not skinny but fatter. Turnabout is fair as the reverse bows, flatter keels and low placed volume were trends proved in if not pioneered with the A’s.

All things very cool for the techno junkies and the guys looking for the newest things. Not so cool for costs. Development, new models, new tooling etc are expensive and costs of boats to race show this. People have always accepted this in the A class, but the old builder set up in the classes like the F18 and F16 are seeing/will see this too.

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225512
12/16/10 10:43 AM
12/16/10 10:43 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
And what Matt just said is of utmost importance for a class with ambitions to grow large! If manufacturers dont make money the class will always be small.

Yet another reason for homebuilding cool

Re: new boat [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #225514
12/16/10 11:18 AM
12/16/10 11:18 AM
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 893
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waynemarlow Offline
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But to make money today in a world full of affluent purchasers, manufacturers constantly have to update their products to sell new product. People no longer sadly want things that last and are good at there designed use, but want visually exciting and disposiable items. Its simply what we have become used to I'm afraid.

But to mitigate this, tooling up for new designs is not as expensive as it once was, latest 3D cutting costs have plummetted and its not unusual to cut whole sections out of MDF, join them together and you have a male or female mould suitable for building and testing a new design. To be at the selling end I'm afraid that manufacturers are going to have to get used to constantly doing R & D and pushing out new models. cool

Re: new boat [Re: Matt M] #225548
12/16/10 05:38 PM
12/16/10 05:38 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Aido  Offline
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Brisveagas
Have to agree with Matt on this one. I think the new techniques on the A are more attributable to the mast and sails.

Thrice bitten pointed out that this is how it works on the mossie. To my eye the new a rigs are stiffer sideways and heaps bendier fore and aft. Makes sense when you think about it. Wouldn't be easy to achieve on a wing mast. But I dont pretend to understand composites so maybe not.

It not just the guys on the DNAs trapping downwind.

Need to get me one of those bendy carbon sticks. wink

Originally Posted by Matt M
Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Yes, the A class guys can be a bit like Lemmings, however do you really think there is no significant difference between the MkIV Boyer and the Flyer?

As for the DNA, some of the best are convinced. Ashby so much that he got himself one despite his production of ASGs. What does that say. He does not want to be beaten by Brewin on a DNA. From what I have heard over here, the DNA guys are now trapping downwind. The platform has allowed them to do this in reasonable breeze where as it was too dangerous before hand.

There will always be those who jump towards the trend manufacture, however every now and then a manufacture will raise the bar a notch and others will have to follow suit or slide out the back door.

Many here keep rushing to “the sailor makes the biggest difference” which is true, but if you were investing, why would you put yourself at a disadvantage. Why should you have to sail better than the next guy to equal his performance.

New designs have and will come out, they will be quicker and over time. It may happen with gradual change or you may see a leap from one manufacturer. So really, how many people here disagree?


I am not claiming that there is not a significant difference in the 2 designs. And I would also rather be on the newer design than the older. If you had like age/condition boats and identical foils and rig though, the ultimate difference (across the whole range of conditions) would be such that normal mistakes and sailing errors for almost every sailor would outweigh the potential to drive the boat easier.

Downwind trapping is just a technique that was already being tried before the DNA much like the wild thing was years ago. The ability to do this easier is a result of the new revision in mast/Sail combo and has nothing to do with the DNA. The revised bend changes to some of the newer masts allows you to have a larger sail shape range, so you can be fuller with more power off wind but still be able to keep flat and in control up wind.

The ASG3 went radical from A class standards and has not been received well. Ashby has his hands full I imagine with the AC, so I would not consider his jump to a DNA anything other than convenience.

It’s the age old dilemma with formula/box classes. What you really are proposing is 1 design racing. Or, we all buy the newest design each year- which is what typically happens with a select group within each class. The F18 guys work overtime trying to tell the world they are all equal and the A class works hard to promote the designer and development. Both have strong level racing across the fleet. – why?


Aido
Viper 288
Re: new boat [Re: Tornado_ALIVE] #225549
12/16/10 05:54 PM
12/16/10 05:54 PM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



Originally Posted by Tornado_ALIVE
Ashby's company builds the ASGs. When AHPC shifted boat production offshore, one of their boat builders moved over to build boats for Ashby. (Ashby started of as an AHPC sailmaker before going out on his own). It would not supprise me if Ashby bought the DNA to have a good look at it before bringing out the next ASG design. Nacra had a good look at the Capricorns and Tigers when designing the Infusion.


When I spoke to Glenn about a month ago he stated this was the plan.

Expect the next generation of A's from someone (whoever has the budget and facilities) to be built using two moulds. One for hull outsides and top surface of beams and the other being inner hulls and beam bottoms. Its all about stiffness and structural continuity

Re: new boat [Re: ] #225564
12/17/10 05:13 AM
12/17/10 05:13 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
What would you but between the inside and outside, and what would the process be?

Why would this be "better" than a core with outside and inside laminates?


Very interesting stuff!

Re: new boat [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #225565
12/17/10 05:22 AM
12/17/10 05:22 AM

S
Scarecrow
Unregistered
Scarecrow
Unregistered
S



I don't think you're understanding. I'm talking port and stbd halves

Re: new boat [Re: ] #225569
12/17/10 10:22 AM
12/17/10 10:22 AM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Rolf_Nilsen  Offline

Carpal Tunnel

Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Ahhhh.. laugh

Re: new boat [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #225934
12/27/10 04:42 PM
12/27/10 04:42 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
"Anyway you are never going to get rid of the guy who thinks he can just go purchase some more speed cause he can’t make his current equipment win. "

And why, from a mfg. standpoint, is this a bad thing? It keeps builders in business, and supplies a steady stream of lightly used, newer models in the chain for those who don't have all the dough to spend on the sport, but still want a solid performer....


Jay

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