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Re: Why I became a OD Nazi [Re: Mary] #22819
08/05/03 01:17 PM
08/05/03 01:17 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
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pitchpoledave  Offline
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Toronto, Ontario
Hi Mary,
Most other sports like motoX are like the formula classes that we are now getting to. I think that formula is the way to go for sure because everyone gets to play, and innovation isn't stiffled like it is in one design. I feel that the "tiger only" and similar events are bad for the sport, except if its a hobie worlds or something, but even then it probably should be an f18 worlds instead. (Is Chevy better than Ford? probably not, so why not let them race head to head under formula rules?) (AND, if one of the f18 designs isn't good enough the manufacturer or owner has free choice to modify to suit)

It is the MANUFACTURERS who have convinced (some of) us that the best event is a OD event.

And, yes there can be HUGE differences between H16s in performance due to setup, old sails etc.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Why I became a OD Nazi [Re: pitchpoledave] #22820
08/05/03 01:37 PM
08/05/03 01:37 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Yes! I'm definitely in favor of formula classes. For many cat sailors, it's the best option right now. One-design was created and pushed by manufacturers and then destroyed by the same manufacturers, who followed in the path of potato chips -- a flavor for every tastebud.

Formula works for racing motorized vehicles, and sailboats are also motorized vehicles -- just a different kind of motor.

Last edited by Mary; 08/05/03 01:53 PM.
Re: Why I became a OD Nazi [Re: Mary] #22821
08/05/03 02:20 PM
08/05/03 02:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 74
Reno, NV
pschmalz Offline
journeyman
pschmalz  Offline
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Posts: 74
Reno, NV

"Bracket Racing" is a form of drag racing that uses a handicap-like system. More info here.


Powerboats
also sometimes use a handicap system.

I think you'll see handicap systems sprout up in any sport where equipment makes a big difference, and where amateurs of different income levels wish to compete on a fairly level playing field.


Re: Why I became a OD Nazi [Re: pschmalz] #22822
08/05/03 02:24 PM
08/05/03 02:24 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 74
Reno, NV
pschmalz Offline
journeyman
pschmalz  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 74
Reno, NV

Almost forgot the biggest one: The NASTAR skiing series


Handicapping [Re: pschmalz] #22823
08/05/03 03:29 PM
08/05/03 03:29 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Very interesting stuff. Thanks!

One-design vs. One-manufacturer [Re: Mary] #22824
08/06/03 08:05 AM
08/06/03 08:05 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
Steve_Kwiksilver Offline
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Steve_Kwiksilver  Offline
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Posts: 612
Cape Town, South Africa
To be fair to the one-design concept, we need to differentiate between OD classes & One-manufacturer classes.
I sail one-design, but have a few options : I can build my own boat from plywood, or order epoxy hulls, I can choose any sailmaker as long as the sail measures, and I can use the appropriate quality fitting for the job, saving money by using cheaper fittings where the loads are not high. I can also race one-design AND formula, my boat measures to the class rules of a one-DESIGN class. All the boats must comply to min. weight rules, so there is no real difference between wooden hulls and epoxy - ask an Auzzie Taipan sailor.
But then we have One-manufacturer classes : The build hulls using the cheapest methods, then charge for carbon/kevlar, they sell dacron sails at mylar prices, and fit your boat out with low-budget fittings at Harken/Ronstan prices. This might work well to ensure equal racing, but at who`se cost ? The boat buyer`s !
Formula concept is a great way of saying one-design in the long term, since the podium hunters will buy the best boat in the formula to ensure success, in F18 the boat to beat is the Tiger, why not just buy one? Then Nacra launches their product, if it`s faster, the serious guys will migrate to that boat .... until next year another MANUFACTURER launches a faster model, great for the development of boats, not great for sailors with fixed income. In the end the best One-MANUFACTURER class prospers, and the sailors still pay too much for boats.
One-DESIGN ensures price controls are in place - don`t like a sailmaker`s price, use another one. Same with fittings & hulls etc. If it measures the same, it is the same. Any minor differences can attribute to 2% of the boats performance, picking the right windshifts are the other 98.
AND my reasonably-priced one-design boat runs rings around most one-manufacturer cats of the same size.
Want to know more ? http://users.iafrica.com/t/tu/tuffex/

Re: rating? & NaziS ? [Re: knewbury] #22825
08/08/03 10:02 AM
08/08/03 10:02 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
I race a lot on portsmouth and only recently have had the experience of REAL class racing with the Stan "the motorboat man", Rick, Sharron and a bunch of other Hobie Waves at I-LYA.

Kenn, the only time picking a lane is important in a divided open fleet is right at the start - then everyone fans out and it's a matter of making your boat fast. Should I cover that Supercat 20 Tall Rig with my Nacra 6.0NA? NO! I owe him 3 minutes! What would covering him do for me besides ensure that he finishes right next to me and beats me after the correction?

Try one design. You'll never feel better about a great start that gained you 2 boat lengths when you win first place by a nose and covered and fought tooth and nail the whole way around to guard your position. I'm a speed freak with my 6.0NA+chute and while it's not going to get sold any time soon, that little slow poke Hobie Wave gave me the greatest thrill and the best learning experience I have had to date.


Jake Kohl
Some ODs just aren't... [Re: Jake] #22826
08/08/03 11:07 AM
08/08/03 11:07 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,293
Long Beach, California
John Williams Offline
Carpal Tunnel
John Williams  Offline
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Long Beach, California
Hey Jake, et. al.

Been following this thread with interest - one of my frequently unanswerable questions is "why do you race?" A lot of folks get a blank look and either think it's so obvious it doesn't bear utterance, or (like me) they simply can't put their finger on why exactly they go through it all. Reading some of the posts here confirms my belief that the reasons for racing are as varied as the boats on the start line.

Jake - when you brought up the OD Wave racing, I thought I would add an observation. We did a Winter Series race here in Pensacola for which we used Waves. The consensus was that, to be fair, we should race in a round-robin, trading boats after each race. We were only a little surprised that the BOATS finished in the same order no matter who was on them. Everyone tied for first (or last) with an equal score and number of firsts, seconds, etc.

Of course, I am a proponent for Portsmouth racing - we don't have any one-design fleets here, and DPN seems to consistently work pretty well. Even for the events where out-of-towners help us have more than one fleet, we still try to start together and sail the same course because folks often want to know where they finished up overall. In the one or two geographic regions where I've bumped into an exclusionary attitude (we don't want you on our start line, you'll mess up our racing) I didn't really get it, and probably reacted poorly because I didn't understand.

All that said, I very much enjoy national-level one-design events. I still don't think the boats are equal, though - I view it more like Formula or box-rule racing, and it's just a coincidence that everyone has a boat from the same manufacturer.





John Williams

- The harder you practice, the luckier you get -
Gary Player, pro golfer

After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
Re: Why I became a OD Nazi [Re: Mary] #22827
08/08/03 11:08 AM
08/08/03 11:08 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
bowling.


Jake Kohl
Re: Some ODs just aren't... [Re: John Williams] #22828
08/08/03 12:47 PM
08/08/03 12:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 206
Yardley PA
DanWard Offline
enthusiast
DanWard  Offline
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Posts: 206
Yardley PA
Wow! The boats finished in the same order every time? I've been sailing OD for over 30 years and have never seen or even heard of that happening before. (Even when not using a round robin format). How many boats and races are we talking about? Of course, if your observation is valid and the boats really are that different, it also points out the impossibility of developing a fair handicapping system. All the Waves had the same rating...

Re: Some ODs just aren't... [Re: DanWard] #22829
08/08/03 01:16 PM
08/08/03 01:16 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
c'mon John, while you can't discount fresh and well made sails (since it's really the only variable left on these boats), Stan and Rick were 1 & 2 overall and even both of them had a couple of finishes in the back this week. I had two firsts (one of them due to a lucky find of the B mark in the early morning sun) and a few mid fleets. I went from the back to the front three times (twice in one race!), and Stan did countless times. Rick mostly stayed at the front in races he finished well in (almost all of them) and from my observations, while close on his stern, it wasn't because of any major difference in boat speed. There was a lot of passing and a lot of mixing of the finish orders - mistakes were amplified because everything was so close. From the starts, almost all the boats seemed to carry the same speed and it was only after a tack or two did the fleet get spread out. Another thing to note is that these boats were all carrying non-Hobie sails from two different manufacturers - some very new some old. 1st and 4th from one maker and 2nd and 3rd from another.


Jake Kohl
Re: Some ODs just aren't... [Re: John Williams] #22830
08/08/03 01:54 PM
08/08/03 01:54 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Quote
We did a Winter Series race here in Pensacola for which we used Waves. The consensus was that, to be fair, we should race in a round-robin, trading boats after each race. We were only a little surprised that the BOATS finished in the same order no matter who was on them. Everyone tied for first (or last) with an equal score and number of firsts, seconds, etc.


John, were these rental Waves, as opposed to individually owned ones? I have seen dramatic differences in rental Waves -- especially the underwater shape of the hulls and skegs, depending upon how much they have been dragged over the sand -- and I can see how the boats might become very unequal as time, and erosion, goes on. It's one of the problems with rotomolded hulls unless you keep from dragging them over sand.

Why debate your preference ? [Re: Jake] #22831
08/08/03 02:03 PM
08/08/03 02:03 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
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Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Why debate your personal choice of the kind of racing you prefer. I think it's a moot point. IF you had a perfect world and could switch from a portsmouth fleet over to a large active one design or formulae fleet with the kind of performance you are looking for (along with your friends) without loosing money. It would be a no brainer.

This is not reality. We have 2 and 3 boat fleets of similar but not identical designs. (F18, and Inter 20's).
The interesting debate is What to do now? Continue as we are or begin to make changes. It seems to me the debate should try to develop a consensus of how to move forward. We continue to suffer steady decline in the racers and we should consider dramatic changes in how we do buisness.

Here are two extremes:
For example:
Jeff Alter proposed that Hobie focus on 16's and Tigers as the racing classes. You could argue (He does not make this arguement) that Hobie fleets should de emphasize or eliminate all of the other classes at regattas so that the racers are persuaded to moved into one of these two classes if they want to race. This solution will strenghten one design racing of catamarans for two man teams.

I propose the other extreme. I propose that we should group the boats in similar portsmouth divisions (EG Hobie 16,Prindle 16's, Hobie 18's irrespective of turnout numbers ) and then split out one design scoring. I suggest that you leave the one design racing for a very limited number of national events.

There are lots of solutions in between these two extremes. If your fleet runs a regatta What should your fleet do and why?

Your participation supports some kind of a program. What will you support.

Some yacht clubs on the Chesapeake restrict the classes that they support in racing (Similar to the first proposal). Other Yacht clubs support the handicap racing solution of proposal 2.

Take Care
Mark


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Why debate your preference ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #22832
08/08/03 02:48 PM
08/08/03 02:48 PM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 5,558
Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mary Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mary  Offline
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Key Largo, FL & Put-in-Bay, OH...
Mark, I guess I haven't been reading enough lately. Where did Jeff Alter propose this? I think he might be on the right track. I'm 100% behind anybody who pushes and promotes to get a one-design class going -- whether it is Jeff Alter with the Tigers or W.F. Oliver with the F-18HT's, or Rick White with the Waves or Bryan Perrin with the Sharks or the Olympic class contenders with the Tornadoes.

You will never convince me that open class racing around the buoys is anything but a poor substitute for one-design racing. To me, five boats racing one-design is better than 20 boats on Portsmouth. In fact, THREE boats racing one-design is better.

Re: Why debate your preference ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #22833
08/08/03 03:02 PM
08/08/03 03:02 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI

We debate so people can express their experiences and within those experiences we SEEK and eventually find truth , we can discover what is in error and change or adopt to more successfull concepts to help insure a better future .
Many catsailors have found great success in class racing ,and now new Formula class groups ,-this may be a better option to work towards along with equal rating classifications .--We differ on how to define --equal rating --by timed average of skippers ,--or by design measurement of equal r Length Beam Weight and sail area.
If many many catsailors prefer class type racing then the collective{ we }should work toards a future of class type racing and use handicap only if good class racing is not available .
If most catsailors prefer class racing and experience of others tells us they are less likely to race ,-then these debates or relayed individual experiences and preferences provide a direction ,--class racing as priority or promoting a future of handicap racing {no matter what its called} Handicap racing seems the way to insure smaller and smaller turnouts at events that run them .-Active catsailors within clubs need to work with the local builder -boatdealer to promote the class and build it up ,--inc tuning tips and beach instruction and talks ,-racing groups for new sailors ,-This along with ensuiasts for a particular class along with good organized class structure will insure a growing future .
We have no concensis ,-many builders and boatdealers are not on board yet as to design classification , -

Declining numbers seems to be the general trend in the U S over the last decade due to many factors ,-but we do know large numbers did race in very large classes in the past and we do know that many catsailors round the globe race in large Formula classes now .

So work toards handicap racing as now ---
or change with current directions of promoting box rule type and formula type classes in ea length W L B SA category ---TAKE A POLL -


-Providing the worst scenario -H wanting it both ways --does not reflect the current attitude and direction the sport and the numerous catsailors that race in it seems to want to go which is a more positive open sport -race per length -and design measurement specs by the rules to provide fair sailing .

We can of course do both --class race and open race by starting same rating classes together ,-so when sufficient numbers of a defined class are not present it becomes a debate of classification ,--again is design measurement a better means of this being more condusive and integral with box measurement design classes .
What will produce a better future for the sport ?
each has their opinion based on their experiences ,



Re: Why debate your preference ? [Re: Mark Schneider] #22834
08/08/03 03:19 PM
08/08/03 03:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
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Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
that's an interesting thought Mark. I am sitting here thinking how neat that would be to get some big number one design fleets going and at first glance I was intrigued by your suggestion. That is, until I think about what would happen if my club decided to only support G-cat 5.0s and Supercat 20s. What if I round up 5 Nacra 6.0NAs to show up at the Outback Cup (which is an event that our club helps to organize) but we find that we have to be scored as part of a large open fleet and we get our butts handed to us by a Wave with a hooter.

Perhaps if it were that if there are three or less of one kind of boat they go to the open class. Four or better would still constitute a class to be scored individually. Wait, that's what we are supposed to be doing right? But nobody does it. Seems we have already ordered all these trophies and (wasn't that you?) they go ahead and score and award those classes even if the required boats don't show.

O.K. here's my point (I'll stop the babble; promise). I think you have hit on an interesting and valid topic. How do we move closer toward one design fleets? I agree that we can do it within our existing system by being a little more strict about how we are scoring regattas. But then that leads to regional boat preferences...G-cats here in middle S.C., Nacras in Michigan, Waves in southern FL, etc. Is it really possible to attack this issue?


Jake Kohl
Re: Which Format do you prefer? [Re: sail6000] #22835
08/08/03 03:20 PM
08/08/03 03:20 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline
member
Barry  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA


Re: Why debate your preference ? [Re: sail6000] #22836
08/08/03 03:35 PM
08/08/03 03:35 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Carl

The radical notion is to force people to choose X design in order to go racing.

The idea is that if you provide a racing event for small classes... they linger around and drain vitality out of the selected one design fleets in the region. The solution is to force these classes to develop and grow or rapidly go away. If you want to race... you fall in line and race the X boat. (10 boats on the line or you don't race would certainly force big changes in who and how we go racing)

What you can't predict is whether at the end of this ruthless process will you be stronger and larger or smaller and weaker? What do you think... its happening in your fleet right now? The F18 class has grown dramatically in CRAM drawing from I17's, I20's and the N5.8NA fleets. Is it a good thing to have small fleets of I20's and 5.8's hanging on now?

As you know, I don't think that this is a good solution and choose the alternative. I am very skeptical that many sailors in the existing fleets would follow to the selected classes. I don't believe that the One design or formula goal trumps convenience and fun factor in people's decision making process.

Take Care
Mark

PS
I will look for Jeff Alter's letter to the Hobie Class about one design and the future of hobie racing. It was about 2 or 3 years ago and a bit controversial at the time. I repeat.. He never said... kill the other Hobie classes... He definitely opposed open class racing at Hobie regattas.



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Which Format do you prefer? [Re: Barry] #22837
08/08/03 03:36 PM
08/08/03 03:36 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Jake  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
good spot for a pole - but within the topic of this thread, what's the difference between one design and box rule? I think box rule leads to a need to spend a little more money but ultimately it's also about being able to score boats based on finish position just like one design.


Jake Kohl
Re: Which Format do you prefer? [Re: Barry] #22838
08/08/03 03:47 PM
08/08/03 03:47 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Hi Barry

That will measure your personal preference. I could not imagine portsmouth winning over the other two choices.

My question is this.
Which format will maintain or grow cat racing in your region.

Followed up with the killer... Would you switch boats to go racing if required?


crac.sailregattas.com
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