| Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: Jake]
#230428 03/29/11 07:42 PM 03/29/11 07:42 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | No... you need to read this again.
All of that stuff is noise... the rules bias illustrates just how off you can be... (calculate boat length and speed of going from first to 10th to get the magnitude of the time lost just to rules noise) The more noise... the more data you need to average it out so that you arrive at the ACCURATE RATING... that's a unique problem for Portsmouth alone. BUT..
PHRF and SCHRS don't have this issue... The rating table is generated a different way. YET they still limit the decimal points in the rating tables. Why? Why don't they choose to use more decimal places for an accurate and highly precise ratings table? Answer, Because the noise also exists in every race that would be processed.... you won't average out this noise. So, You don't use a micrometer to measure a meter.
Bottom line... a rating system can be very accurate... but it won't be very resolving (precise). Go race one design for that.
The tangential argument raised here is... the new sails ... while class legal, fully measured in etc etc are UNFAIR to the rest of the fleet. We are not getting an accurate rating from Portsmouth that is timely and fair. (hmm... where have I heard that before) THEREFORE we need a PHRF solution to make the game fair. (oops... off the cliff for me)
My point.. the small change would be a wild butt guess (per PHRF) AND the rating system simply can't discriminate boat performance differences that small anyway.
If you like the fairy tale of portsmouth... fine! ... don't change it.
if you like the politics of PHRF... fine! have at it with your fleet.
If you want a transparent and accurate rating system for beach cats... use SCHRS... the major distance races already do!
If the alter cup eliminations flipped to SCHRS... the country would adopt the measurement system. Most races would use a generic certificate just like we do now... it's class legal... its rating is Blah. Make changes.. go get it measured.... or measure it your self and we will use that rating. More important events... get a certificate.
Mike... I agree... the semantics of Box Vs Formula seems trivial to me.. I am happy with... there is a formula for crew weight... there is a formula for sail area... there is a box for the platform. We choose to call it Formula... you have a problem with that... speak to the hand.
The tangent was the mind blowing notion that we now take the buggered up portsmouth system... and HELP IT with PHRF like fixes. We already have a PHRF rating for the F16... You want to make things worse???
I also agree... the problem is very small these days... Only the Alter qualifier require a handicap race. As I said... the only two large handicap events in my world and those are for local bragging rights between OD fleets. The Pimpin Pumkin beer mug just ain't worth much.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: Dan_Delave]
#230429 03/29/11 08:59 PM 03/29/11 08:59 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | I say screw class, box, formula rules, and screw handicaps. Run what ya brung. Wish we could all afford to bring an AC45 Back in the mid 90's Jeremy McGrath was the absolute king of all things motocross and supercross. People considered themselves winners if they got second. I don't think I'd have any problem with taking second place behind any boat that justifiably took top position. ![wink wink](/forum/images/graemlins/default/wink.gif) My father used to say that racing was plain ol' stupid. It could easily be solved over coffee just by comparing bank statements. OD, or box rules doesn't change that. If I had the money and time to keep a boat in absolute perfect tune, my body in shape, and coaching to keep the skills honed it would be no different.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: catandahalf]
#230623 04/01/11 08:35 AM 04/01/11 08:35 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | Hey Bert,
I didn't touch on this before, but what you just posted makes complete and total sense to me. The issue of the sail design (such as fat head mains) is totally a class rule issue. This is just one example of arms races that can happen in a box/formula environment, it's part of that game.
If someone has a problem with that, they need to take it up with the class (or find a different one), but "fixing" it via PN is a bad idea.
EDIT: Of course, if enough boats change to a much saster sail, then the PN would eventually adjust once sufficient race data is factored in.
Mike
Last edited by brucat; 04/01/11 08:38 AM.
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230630 04/01/11 08:58 AM 04/01/11 08:58 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | EDIT: Of course, if enough boats change to a much faster sail, then the PN would eventually adjust once sufficient race data is factored in.
Mike
Mike, and that's probably the single biggest complaint with DPN and why a measurement system appeals to so many. The amount of time it takes for the data to make an impact is far to long to be viewed as fair by most. The perception with a measurement system is as soon as a boat is measured and the number as assigned it's automatically the fairest number possible, and that's where the two schools of thought separate. The best thing about handicap racing is eventually everyone discovers (regardless which system is used) it's a wild butt guess and consolidation of classes takes place.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230632 04/01/11 09:24 AM 04/01/11 09:24 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Of course, if enough boats change to a much faster sail, then the PN would eventually adjust once sufficient race data is factored in ... in a land far far away where 10 F16's (with the new stuff) are raced against 10 F18's and 10 Hobie 16's by the top of the class sailor fairy's for 100 races... (20 regattas of 5 races each)....
May the portsmouth fairy's be with you!
There... fixed it for you.!
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#230634 04/01/11 09:54 AM 04/01/11 09:54 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | W T F???
Dave and Mark, you're totally twisting my point. I never said PN is perfect (or that I like it), in fact, I've reiterated in other posts above why no one likes it, but there are numerous reasons that it won't be fixed in the foreseeable future, so it's basically "good enough."
My key point in the last post was that PN can't deal with stuff that's allowed within class rules, and shouldn't be expected to. A F18 sailor who has old/out-designed equipment is in just as much jeopardy at a F18-class event (non-handicapped) as in the open event, so PN should NOT try to "fix" this.
I know, there's impact to sailors of other classes in open events, but go back to the last paragraph. Where's the support to change to a certification system in the US? As in, who is going to do it, and how will it impact attendance when people don't take the time to get certs?
Mike | | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230637 04/01/11 10:28 AM 04/01/11 10:28 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | I know, there's impact to sailors of other classes in open events, but go back to the last paragraph. Where's the support to change to a certification system in the US? As in, who is going to do it, and how will it impact attendance when people don't take the time to get certs?
Mike
Mike, I was not agreeing or disagreeing with your post I was just making a point based on your last paragraph. As for the certification system working in the US, it will take a dedicated set of volunteers and an overall acceptance from the multihull community for it to work. Speaking from my experiences with enforcing the certification requirement for the 2010 F18 North Americans it took a fair amount of effort from a lot of people to make it happen and honestly I just don't see that level of effort taking place in the open class. I could be wrong... I've been wrong once before.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: David Ingram]
#230640 04/01/11 11:27 AM 04/01/11 11:27 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Mike... not twisting or agreeing with your point that PN should not mess with class rules. ( I certainly agree)
Just making the point about data (none) and time (forever).
Sorry Dave The issue of certificates is a red herring. It is completely dependent on what kind of race is called for. (How many F18 boats were tossed for not measuring in)
The vast majority of boats are stock legal class boats that have a Portsmouth number AND a SCHRS number. No difference in race management.
Modifications to Stock boats. in PN they are declared for most races and adjustments are made at face value by you the owner and you report your rating.. in Measurement world... if you made changes... you must make the measurements your self and adjust your rating yourself and use it when you register..Many calculators and spreadsheets exist. No difference to race management
For races like the Area qualifiers where something more then a trophy is at stake... no change would be needed either. These races do not allow boats with modification to race in Portsmouth Area championships now.. In measurement world... you could enforce the same rule.. boats with modifications are not allowed. NO difference to race management.
OR... you could raise the bar and allow boats with modifications who have a valid certificate. (It's the owners problem and ISAF approved measurement people are available and for a fee will give you a documented rating certificate)
I never get why people think its such a big deal to switch.
There really isn't that much of need for anything more then what I describe above.
Last edited by Mark Schneider; 04/01/11 11:32 AM.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#230646 04/01/11 12:10 PM 04/01/11 12:10 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Have you made the switch to SCHRS or Texel in your area? If not, why not? You don't hold a US Multihull Championship Semi-Final in your area so there shouldn't be anything standing in your way.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: David Ingram]
#230648 04/01/11 01:26 PM 04/01/11 01:26 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | OK.
I think this has been brought up before, but has anyone actually gone through a year's worth of regattas and recalculated using the proposed systems to see if it really made any difference?
And, how does using SCHRS with "no modifications" solve the problem of the changing sail designs for the box classes? If the new designs are class legal, where is the requirement to adjust the number?
Further, would any OA really want to have to send a boat home if they had a mod that doesn't meet class rules? Some Hobie fleets struggle with this debate over new guys without Comptips. In that case, it's a question of class culture, which probably wouldn't exist in an open event.
I really don't have a dog in the fight, but I think the jury is still out on whether this is an actual problem, that there are enough events where this would matter, that enough people agree it's an actual problem worth the time and effort to change, and whether any of the proposed solutions (changes) would "fix" more problems than simply changing would create (unintended consequences).
Mike | | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230649 04/01/11 01:36 PM 04/01/11 01:36 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | I really don't have a dog in the fight, but I think the jury is still out on whether this is an actual problem, that there are enough events where this would matter, that enough people agree it's an actual problem worth the time and effort to change, and whether any of the proposed solutions (changes) would "fix" more problems than simply changing would create (unintended consequences).
Mike
Bingo!
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230660 04/01/11 04:17 PM 04/01/11 04:17 PM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 606 Maryland Kris Hathaway OP
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Posts: 606 Maryland | I think we all hear you Mike. Short of an Alter Cup style of event, there is no perfect rating system. As you pointed out within semi-development box rule classes, all boats are not equal. It even occurs with SMOD boats (different age, sail and manufacturing quality control..etc) However, we stive to get it close enough such that it is the sailors that make the difference. The best system would be variable modeling from a large database of current results amoung all of the active boats, sailors, and conditions; ie: Portsmouth's goal. No such luxury though and thus theorectical models (Texel & SCHRS) exist in addition to Portmouth. Pick your poison.
Does anyone beyond North America use Portsmouth? Eventhough SCHRS is promoted by the ISAF, is it employed outside of the UK and Down Under?
Kris Hathaway | | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: Kris Hathaway]
#230671 04/01/11 08:54 PM 04/01/11 08:54 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | Kris, I'm not aware of anyone outside US that uses PN (maybe Canada?). I think the database is managed by USSA volunteers. Does anyone else know?
Seriously, this is not April Fools:
The more I think about this, Mark does raise some good points, and there are other issues that have been brought up as well (new boat designs, etc.). While I'm not sure how perfectly any system can deal with this right away, there may be something to that.
I'm trying to look at this with an open mind to all sides. I truly don't care how this turns out (i.e. which system "wins"), but if there is a better way to do this, maybe we should look at it.
We could form a working party to investigate further. Make a list of pros and cons of each system (research and input from users of the non-US systems), research the desires of the sailors (what would make them show up vs. stay away), what would be most fair (admittedly a subjective topic), do some data comparisons, etc.
Then, we could present it to the MHC for a vote.
Possibly the most important thing to do coming out of this is to really beef up the PR value of the system that wins. We know that no system is perfect, but we should focus on the advantages of the system that is ultimately chosen.
Of course, if no one thinks this is important, and the effort should be spent elsewhere (raising attendance at cat events in general, including OD events), then a case could be made not to take up volunteer time to fix something that is a really low priority.
Mike | | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: brucat]
#230682 04/02/11 09:48 AM 04/02/11 09:48 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA David Ingram
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Posts: 3,906 Clermont, FL, USA | Kris, I'm not aware of anyone outside US that uses PN (maybe Canada?). I think the database is managed by USSA volunteers. Does anyone else know?
Seriously, this is not April Fools:
The more I think about this, Mark does raise some good points, and there are other issues that have been brought up as well (new boat designs, etc.). While I'm not sure how perfectly any system can deal with this right away, there may be something to that.
I'm trying to look at this with an open mind to all sides. I truly don't care how this turns out (i.e. which system "wins"), but if there is a better way to do this, maybe we should look at it.
We could form a working party to investigate further. Make a list of pros and cons of each system (research and input from users of the non-US systems), research the desires of the sailors (what would make them show up vs. stay away), what would be most fair (admittedly a subjective topic), do some data comparisons, etc.
Then, we could present it to the MHC for a vote.
Possibly the most important thing to do coming out of this is to really beef up the PR value of the system that wins. We know that no system is perfect, but we should focus on the advantages of the system that is ultimately chosen.
Of course, if no one thinks this is important, and the effort should be spent elsewhere (raising attendance at cat events in general, including OD events), then a case could be made not to take up volunteer time to fix something that is a really low priority.
Mike Mike, the Portsmouth Committee does not answer to the MHC, even if we take a vote it can only be presented to the Portsmouth Committee as a recommendation. At the end of the day it's the Portsmouth Committee's decision. As for presenting a new system, those wheels were put in motion last year. Mr. Schneider can you give us an update of where you are with this effort? I also want to emphasis again, no regatta is required to use DPN except the US Multihull Championship (Alter Cup) Semi-Finals. If an OA believes that their regatta would be better served by using something else they are free to do so. The only thing the OA has to do do is put the handicap system to be used in the NOR and it's done. This need for US Sailing to officially move away from DPN escapes me.
David Ingram F18 USA 242 http://www.solarwind.solar"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda "Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall "You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
| | | Re: Box & Formula Rules and Classes
[Re: catandahalf]
#230689 04/02/11 03:43 PM 04/02/11 03:43 PM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | Dave, what I meant by vote was wheter or not to continue using PN, not to change the PN program. I would think that the Alter Cup qualifiers could be changed as well.
I thought there was some more serious discussion about this last year. But, like I've said all along, my sense is that the majority of the sailors don't want a change [insert reason(s) here]; however, that doesn't mean that Mark doesn't have good points.
Maybe we just need to put an official end to all this debate and get Mark to agree to let it go once and for all...
Mike
EDIT: BTW, I take serious issue with the notion that going to a no-modification or bring-your-own certificate system won't negatively impact event Race Management and OAs. Not because it isn't being managed well elsewhere, but I am very concerned about dealing with the inevitable sailors that refuse to comply, demanding to race or threatening to never come back. We really can't afford to be turning boats away, financially or politically.
Last edited by brucat; 04/02/11 03:53 PM.
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