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Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #231975
05/05/11 10:33 AM
05/05/11 10:33 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Ok... it's all about driving!

So... Men will have driving opportunities
in Laser, Finn, 470 and 49ner.

Women will have driving opportunities in
Laser, Mixed multi, 470 and 29nerXX

Looking at it this way... the 16 footers would not win out in a trial. You might as well go with a 20 footer... You also need something for the Olympic flash! A 20 footer will make for the best show on video. The 49ner show is just not that eye catching. A 20 foot cat would make this event the feature event (along with kites) at the sailing olympics.

Perhaps the executive committee will take into account the demographics of sailors (60-40 male-female) and make Multihull ... Open ... and then pick a 16 footer to get lots of options for teams.

They probably have done the best they could hope with extending sailing to the rest of the world.

I would be delighted if they made multi... Open and made a very specific charge to the selection committee for what they want to see with respect to participation opportunities.

I would give this option no more then a 5% chance though.





crac.sailregattas.com
-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jake] #231979
05/05/11 10:44 AM
05/05/11 10:44 AM
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 465
FL
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>Do the Olympics dictate that events be male/female/mixed with no opportunity for "open"?<

Is their "open" for Figure Skating Pairs? or Ice dancing?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Jake] #231982
05/05/11 11:38 AM
05/05/11 11:38 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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Quote
if the Olympics are mixed, it will create more mixed teams?


Remember... these classes will loose their ability to host worlds. (The ISAF takes over) So... for the rank and file to worlds level...The answer to your question is NO!... Olympics is just a special circumstance. The number of mixed teams will depend on the number of Olympic slots and the RULES for how slots are awarded world wide. At best you might have three teams in a country competing for one slot per country.

For example, How many US Tornado teams were there in the USA over the last 12 years.... There was no fleet racing outside of the Miami OCR's, the pre regatta and one other event... called nationals. There is very little Tornado Fleet racing after the boat was eliminated from the games.

Quote
killing both keel boats doesn't make sense either.


Actually, I think it does... the Olympics are about young athletes.... 50 year old men and women wiggling the stick playing a tactical chess game that is difficult to video doesn't cut it.

If the Olympic Ideal is ultimate athlete performance and single/double handed dinghies will have a narrow weight range ... having a couple of options makes a lot of sense.

We have this romantic notion that sailors work their way up their fleet's national ladder and then graduate to the Olympic level... The reality is that athletes commit the time and money to the Olympics and then get the training and coaching and class that suits them. having a niche for all sizes of sailors makes sense... your 230 lb sailor better like a Finn... No Nacra 20 for you!

Dinghy sailors can move over to keel boats when they retire their athlete cards! We also have plenty of high profile Keel boat events world wide.... I think Olympic sailing should focus on dinghies and once every 4 years the public will pay a bit of attention when wrapped up in your countries flag.

Quote
Do the Olympics dictate that events be male/female/mixed with no opportunity for "open"?


The IOC wants gender balance in opportunity when it's appropriate. They view the history of OPEN events in most sports as a failure. It is a flim flam because it never gets close to 50 50. In sailing, the equipment choices for multihulls has made open tilt almost completely to men.

Since men will have greater upper body mass and this is a huge factor in righting moment (especially in dinghys). The argument is... that no matter what equipment you choose.. Men will have an advantage and the field will never = 50 50.

I am not sure this model is definitive in multihulls though.
....If you make multi's Open this would be the debate at a trials. I have never heard of an analysis of the top multi teams where height and mass distribution of the teams was viewed as a critical factor in victory. (unlike in dinghies) So, total mass is important and the Olympics quickly finds the boats optimum weight plus or minus a 20 lb range. An equipment choice could be found that makes open ... close to 50 50 where mass distribution and strength should be equalized. The stated and hidden objectives for the multi trials will be critical.

The real issue for multihull gender participation is just how few women get into the sport as helm's. We don't have a feeder program and it kills us. Final Point. Years ago, they interviewed Olympic women sailors and it turns out a HUGE factor is managing the boat on the beach. Humping a 400 lb 20 foot boat up the ramp for two women is just hard. 470's and 29ners are about as much weight as you could manage.
The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)

Lets hope for OPEN multihulls and then worry about equipment.




crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232002
05/05/11 06:06 PM
05/05/11 06:06 PM
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North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
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Quote

The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)



In that case they can also handle a 110 kg F16 I guess.


Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Wouter] #232010
05/06/11 04:17 AM
05/06/11 04:17 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 74
Australia
Helen (AHPC) Offline
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Latest news from the ISAF meeting in St Petersburg... via Bundy's Twitter...

"ISAF Executive Committee recommendations are out. Supporting Star, mixed Multi, 2x470 but No Skiff!! Holly ****!"

It looks like the vote will be held tomorrow as the following was posted on the ISAF Twitter.

"Events for 2016 will be decided at #ISAF Council tomorrow but decisions on core events for 2020 will be made in November"

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: mbounds] #232011
05/06/11 05:55 AM
05/06/11 05:55 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 110
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Devon Offline
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Yes i have but i thought they were just out for a fun sail,

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Devon] #232013
05/06/11 07:25 AM
05/06/11 07:25 AM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 302
Daytona Beach Florida
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orphan Offline
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Amazing how much clout the Star class has.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Helen (AHPC)] #232014
05/06/11 07:34 AM
05/06/11 07:34 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 12,310
South Carolina
Jake Offline
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Originally Posted by Helen (AHPC)
Latest news from the ISAF meeting in St Petersburg... via Bundy's Twitter...

"ISAF Executive Committee recommendations are out. Supporting Star, mixed Multi, 2x470 but No Skiff!! Holly ****!"

It looks like the vote will be held tomorrow as the following was posted on the ISAF Twitter.

"Events for 2016 will be decided at #ISAF Council tomorrow but decisions on core events for 2020 will be made in November"


I can't watch anymore.


Jake Kohl
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Mark Schneider] #232015
05/06/11 08:03 AM
05/06/11 08:03 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 623
Gulf Coast
tami Offline
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Gulf Coast
Schneider, you said:
"The only multihull that women teams can manage on the beach is the Hobie 16 and that gives us the sailing scene we have world wide today. (Very few women drivers in multihulls world wide)"


Fvck YOU, you ignorant slut. I've been lurking this forum and reading your posts, and you really have no clue on so very many levels.

BTW I have no problem managing my 1982 NACRA 18 Square on the beach, that is, by myself. And you should really know the more modern cats weigh less than the H16. Boat weight ain't the reason. It's all about PROMOTION, something you ought to go learn about.

and it's frickin' spelled "LOSE"... FFS you ought to know how that's spelled. Do you ever actually GO sailing?

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: tami] #232018
05/06/11 08:49 AM
05/06/11 08:49 AM
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Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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You GO Girl!

I want to buy her a beer already!


Tami you are welcome to borrow my boat any time, and go kick his butt. Should be easy enough, once you get his head out of the way...


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232021
05/06/11 09:15 AM
05/06/11 09:15 AM
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Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Hahah that was awesome. Go Tami.

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: ThunderMuffin] #232026
05/06/11 11:04 AM
05/06/11 11:04 AM
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At the risk of repeating myself ad nauseum...

Keelboats will never die. If you think otherwise, you are only fooling yourself...

ISAF will stoop to any level needed, including using the paralympics as the reason.

I am ABSOLUTELY NOT saying that the paralympics shouldn't use keelboats, but that should not be the justification for able-bodied athletes to use them.

Mike

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: brucat] #232028
05/06/11 12:29 PM
05/06/11 12:29 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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The part I've never understood is exaclty what they (The Olympic Classes) are supposed to represent? I've read statements by the OC that said words to the effect that the boats had to be "readily available world wide" or "Affordable by every country" and all kinds of other parameters, but we all know it's really inter-class politics, trying to promote one boat over another.

Obviously it's not a race about going fast. I think that's what confuses a lot of non-sailors. All the boats except the 49'r are pretty old (and slow) designs by any measure, the Star, Finn, Laser, even the 470, are all pretty old designs today, let alone in 2016 or 2020.

BUT...on the other hand, being slow, they are much more demanding tactically. If you get a bad start or on the wrong side of a shift, you are not going to catch the fleet with boatspeed from a lucky puff, like you can in cats or the 49'r. You are still going as slowly as they are, but they are further -up the ladder- as they like to say.


So, obviously the Olympics, if they stay with the old designs, is not about speed. I guess it's about who has the best tactics, which is fine.

Personally, I like to go fast, that's why I left dinghys and keelboats for cats a long time ago. That's also why I hate light air I guess. But if the ISAF wants to keep Olympic Class sailboat racing locked in the 20'th (or 19th) century, I'm sure they will.

I'm just glad the AC guys didn't.


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232029
05/06/11 12:43 PM
05/06/11 12:43 PM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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Hi all,

In St Petersburg at ISAF meetings. Will post decision here as soon as it has been decided.

On the iPhone so will post full report in a day or so.

Multihull is on every submission and generally considered untouchable.

Most likely slate by far is the one from the Events committee with no keelboats but you can never discount the Star!

Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: tami] #232030
05/06/11 01:23 PM
05/06/11 01:23 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline OP
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Mark Schneider  Offline OP
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ah... Love you too honey bun!

But... you ought to pay attention if you want to understand what 's going on... Ignorance is not becoming of you.

ISAF women's committee voted for Keel match racing >> Skiff>> multihull the last time.... (The old wenches just won out again... with Elliot match now replacing younger women on skiffs as of today)

The Multihull council and all other organizations agreed that there was no critical mass of women sailing multihulls world wide in 2010 and so women's mulithull was not an option. It's not that women are excluded... women just DON'T PLAY.
Not only do they not play in multihull... they also don't play on skiffs!

So... with regard to PROMOTION... we have the second most popular adult boat in history.. the Hobie 16... 130,000? or so sold over 40 + years. and fact of life... women DON"T RACE IT in sufficient numbers .. even in the cat friendly EU... How long would you like to wait? Why is this the case?

Smart people... (unlike yourself) asked WHY is this?

Members of the ISAF women's committee made the point (among others) about the boat weight being an issue when the F18 option was brought up years ago. (um... the F18 is the elite cat racing class.... and it's modern!) The sexism charge is just so weak... especially when the central point is made by the WOMEN's ISAF committee! And just to be clear ... weight is probably not the decisive factor, just a significant one.

Fact of life... Women are not choosing to play either skiffs or Multihulls world wide in any great number.

Oh.. and these observations match up to my experience on the water. My last regatta was last weekend.... 40 boats.. F16's, 505's, A class, N20's... 4 women played... no drivers... (So much for Modern boats being the solution). The Hobie 16, 17, 18 Regatta had 30 boats with 2 women drivers on these classic boats So in the Mid Atlantic... 70 boats racing... two women drivers... Spring Fever regatta... 80 boats... 4 women drivers. Tradewinds... 90 boats.. 4 women drivers. Did not notice your name on the results though, But we could add you to the list and come up with oh... 10 women drivers! (That is pretty much the east coast of the USA.) We have ZERO skiffs... male or female jr or senior on the east coast.

Pay attention to the world as it is... your sexism upset is just so 70's.

The reality is that women are not discriminated against... they just don't choose to play high performance sailing in significant numbers..

Oh!... and you might have noticed... your square is a SINGLE HANDED BOAT, now dead and it was sailed mostly in the south east USA.... Keep up.... its the 21st century! This is about the two person Olympic boat for world wide use.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Paul Pascoe] #232031
05/06/11 01:59 PM
05/06/11 01:59 PM
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uk
TEAMVMG Offline
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Thanks Paul

Sounds promising....

Let us know all you can


Paul

teamvmg.weebly.com
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232036
05/06/11 02:59 PM
05/06/11 02:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 4,118
Northfield Mn
Karl_Brogger Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo

Obviously the Olympics, if they stay with the old designs, is not about speed. I guess it's about who has the best tactics, which is fine.


I'm down with that. The Olympics at its core is just war games.


Tami- harden up a bit would ya. I don't know you at all but you come across as a real cuntrag with that post. Whether you are or not I don't know.


I'm boatless.
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Karl_Brogger] #232037
05/06/11 03:08 PM
05/06/11 03:08 PM
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Posts: 6,049
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Oh come on now Karl (or shall we call you...Slim Shady?), you'd smack that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KUfFoix1EU

;^)


Blade F16
#777
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Timbo] #232046
05/07/11 12:57 AM
05/07/11 12:57 AM
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Asuncion, Paraguay
Luiz Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo

...on the other hand, being slow, they are much more demanding tactically. If you get a bad start or on the wrong side of a shift, you are not going to catch the fleet with boatspeed from a lucky puff, like you can in cats or the 49'r. You are still going as slowly as they are, but they are further -up the ladder- as they like to say.


Slow boats benefit more from shifts and fast boats from pressure. The tactics in each case are different, but equaly important.

I'd like to take the opportunity to stress the importance of the Star class for the host of the 2016 games. Sailing won more medals for Brazil than any other sport. Robert Scheidt, Torben Grael and Lars Grael are THE local sailing celebrities and sail in the Star class. They did and will continue to lobby to have the class in Rio for many reasons, from professional interest to sailing development and the country's politics. An olympic hero in home waters would tremendously increase personal and sailing's popularity.


Luiz
Re: ISAF gets to screw it up this week. [Re: Luiz] #232047
05/07/11 02:42 AM
05/07/11 02:42 AM
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Paul Pascoe Offline
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ISAF discussion at the moment on the disciplines. Vote should be done in about an hour


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