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Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: TeamChums] #233871
06/21/11 09:26 AM
06/21/11 09:26 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Originally Posted by TeamChums
Quote
Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners.


The kite was cheaper than E/P at around $1350. How is that increasing the cost?


How many Kites did you have to pay for before that one was the one you picked?

I know from my PHRF racing days that the skippers I'd race for would usually have to buy 3 spins before he found one that he liked - and then bought two more in different sizes for different wind strengths.

Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event?

Thats not the class I signed up for.

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: hoofhearted] #233872
06/21/11 09:26 AM
06/21/11 09:26 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Quote
Don' see how changing the sails is going to do anything except increase costs for owners.


The square rigger sailors probably thought that for a little while too. It's progress. The sailplan is 15 years old with no development.If you don't buy new sails anyway, what difference does it make.You can't be competitive with old rags. New sails comes with being competitive, no matter who cuts them. It's part of the racing expense. You can DEFINITELY find cheaper sails than the factory EP, that perform better. So you actually save money.
The Factory attempt at a new kite is either top secret or an abysmal failure. If you would like the N-20 to be relegated to the "also ran" lake crusier with 6 people on it, then you are getting your wish.people are buying the used boats because they are relatively cheap compared to the options not because of a 1D philosophy or class control.
I've raced/owned the N-20 since 2000 when it was pushed on us for the Worrell.I think it deserves more of an effort, if it means being a one man class so be it. It's a distance racer anyway.


Quote
As a class we should build on our strenghts and our 1D philosophy, not try to chase other boats.


Seriously ,Good luck with that.

Does anybody have an idea how many regattas had Class starts for the N-20?
1 Spring Fever
2
3



"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233873
06/21/11 09:29 AM
06/21/11 09:29 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Quote
Whose to say that someone with deep pockets couldn't go out and go buy about 5 spinnakers and pick the best one for the event?


It's all ready been done in the Nacra 20 class. The consistency is far enough off that, that was a standard practice among the well sponsored teams in the Worrell and to a lesser extent the Tybee.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233874
06/21/11 09:35 AM
06/21/11 09:35 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
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Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Originally Posted by Undecided
Quote
And Tad, just remember "people in glass houses..." You better read your class rules very carefully before you make your stand.


Oh I'm so sorry Todd for having spin pole bridle wires that are dyneema.

Because clearly I'm getting a huge competitive advantage by not having bridle wires that are 6" too long and would require non-class-legal modifications to even function.

Go ahead and protest me for that. We'll have a great time ****ing each over other in the room instead of going sailing. Considering how much better you are than I am, I'll end up as the defacto winner of that little foray. There's a certain amount of "making it work" modifications that I'm willing to live with and still fall within the spirit of the rules - especially for distance races.

Completely new, non-class legal sails is well past the line I'm willing to draw.

Quote
I am glad you still like the Kool-aid Trey makes for you.


Thanks for that vote of confidence in my ability to form opinions for myself.


Tad, A rule is a rule. If you're willing to draw it in the sand for other people you better make sure you are 100% legit.
The only thing that would change at all about the sails is who makes them.Sizes would all be the same. Not that there has ever been a factory sail measurement or consistency for the N-20.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233875
06/21/11 09:42 AM
06/21/11 09:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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ThunderMuffin  Offline
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Again Todd - which rule am I breaking? I can't find one that I'm in absolute violation of.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233876
06/21/11 09:43 AM
06/21/11 09:43 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Why would I show my hand now. I'll wait until you protest me.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233877
06/21/11 09:47 AM
06/21/11 09:47 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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So I can go ahead and rectify my transgressions.

It says a lot about your character that you would be willing to hold that against someone who is honestly trying to do the right thing by conforming to a set of rules that he's agreed to participate under.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233878
06/21/11 09:51 AM
06/21/11 09:51 AM
Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Team_Cat_Fever Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Team_Cat_Fever  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Sep 2002
Posts: 3,224
Roanoke Island ,N.C.
Says alot about your character that you are willing to hold back an entire class from development.Self serving at best.


"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"

The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea
Isak Dinesen
If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most.
E. B. White
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Team_Cat_Fever] #233879
06/21/11 09:52 AM
06/21/11 09:52 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
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Portland, Maine
I'm not holding anyone back. You can go ahead and buy all the fancy sails you want - just don't expect me to be ok with it if you want to race in an OD Nacra 20 class.

Go race on handicap all you want.

Open sails is not the class rule I signed up for when I purchased the boat. It was the same for you. Now you want to change the rules of the game.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233880
06/21/11 10:02 AM
06/21/11 10:02 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 72
Rockledge Cay, FL
Fearless_Rider Offline
journeyman
Fearless_Rider  Offline
journeyman

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 72
Rockledge Cay, FL
I've been watching this issue for some time now with quite a keen interest. In the not too distant future a new main and spinnaker is to be purchased.

Where to go, what to buy?

Easy answers (?) NACRA or EP directly...
I have an aftermarket spinnaker from Whirlwind which is fantastically built and I use for non racing fun times.

N20 637


BTW, my BBQ Rocks!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Fearless_Rider] #233881
06/21/11 10:18 AM
06/21/11 10:18 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
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ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
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If you want new class sails then go through your local dealer.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233882
06/21/11 10:27 AM
06/21/11 10:27 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline OP
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TeamChums  Offline OP
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Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
How many Kites did you have to pay for before that one was the one you picked?


Just one. I told them what I wanted (same size as original), gave them 50%, then they made it. Maybe I just got lucky and the first attempt was a good one. I would like to think Jay is at the top of his game when it comes to sailmaking/designing. The kite is definately a step up.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: TeamChums] #233883
06/21/11 10:36 AM
06/21/11 10:36 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Jay and Pease cut a nice sail and two nicer and more helpful people you will not meet. It doesn't hurt that they are two very active beachcat sailors. I'm a fan!


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: David Ingram] #233884
06/21/11 10:59 AM
06/21/11 10:59 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
Bob_Curry Offline
old hand
Bob_Curry  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 744
So,

All this aftermarket chat is great about the sails. One question to answer is how are they to be measured?

I thought there was already a time frame for new sails; what's taking so long? Where is the new set of class rules stating the sail area and how to get there?

On the ratings, maybe the F18 needs to come down since it is always evolving and becoming "faster". The N20 has been the benchmark boat for quite some time in the rating food chain.

There seems to be a lot of blah-blah-blah on a dead class; all IMO. It would be easy to spell out a max head width, max luff, max leech, max foot = max sailarea and have at it on the mainsail! Just spell out the max sailarea for the chute(ISAF measure). The jib will take care of itself with the small triangle. Easy button here from an outside sailor.

I look forward to more debate(entertainment) and hope to see some interesting things on the water!

BC wink


"The election is over, the talking is done, Your party lost, my party won. So let us be friends, let arguments pass, I’ll hug my elephant, you kiss you’re a $$.”
Liberalism = A brain eating amoeba & a failed political ideology of the 20th century!
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Bob_Curry] #233885
06/21/11 11:22 AM
06/21/11 11:22 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
Originally Posted by Bob_Curry
So,

On the ratings, maybe the F18 needs to come down since it is always evolving and becoming "faster". The N20 has been the benchmark boat for quite some time in the rating food chain.



I agree with your point Bob, and I'd also take a step further and say that NONE of the formula/box rule boats have stood still and ALL of them need to be reviewed (F16, A-cat and yes Brett the M20!), oh heck while we're at it let's give the RC30 a good hard look, I don't think I've every seen that rig in the same configuration twice. Why can the RC30 carry multiple headsails w/o penality where every other beachcat takes a hit for doing so? Because you're on the DPN committee can you field that question for us? Or better yet can you define the intent of "All sails". Is that defined as main/jib/1 headsail/ or as many sails that you want to put on the boat at any given time?

And since you are on the DPN committee what's the review process and how does it get started?

Bet you're wishing you never clicked the "post" button now aint ya? :-)


Last edited by David Ingram; 06/21/11 11:32 AM.

David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: David Ingram] #233886
06/21/11 11:39 AM
06/21/11 11:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Quote


Since you are on the DPN committee what's the process and how does it get started?


Oh that's easy!... you need data from a buoys race lasting 45 to an hour against other rated boats (F18's Hobie 16's Tornado) The old secondary yardsticks ... Oh each boat with the same configuration (aka class legal) ... 3 to 5 of each would be a great data set. Measure the wind speed on the course over the race and average it.

99 bottles of beer on the wall.... take one down.. pass it around.... 98 bottles of beer on the wall. When you get to trashed... oh say 15 bottles into this.... you will have a provisional number. 85 more and you are good to go.

Just PHRF/estimate the numbers as you want... It's easier on the liver.


crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Mark Schneider] #233887
06/21/11 11:40 AM
06/21/11 11:40 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
T
ThunderMuffin Offline
Carpal Tunnel
ThunderMuffin  Offline
Carpal Tunnel
T

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,655
Portland, Maine
**** about measurement systems.

Peace out.

Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233889
06/21/11 11:51 AM
06/21/11 11:51 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
Carpal Tunnel
David Ingram  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
<********! Well, until Mary finds out then it's party over.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
"Excuses are the tools of the weak and incompetent" - Two sista's I overheard in the hall
"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: ThunderMuffin] #233890
06/21/11 11:59 AM
06/21/11 11:59 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
Mark Schneider Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Mark Schneider  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,116
Annapolis, MD
AH... I have figured out the problem Todd is having with you..

You don't know how to READ!.... (don't worry, that's correctable... stupid would be unfortunate)

I wrote.. PHRF..... not measurement... PHRF....
you say you understand PHRF... you referenced the evils of PHRF before.

You do know how PHRF works right...? A regional board evaluates race data, Sailor skill, boat prep, team work on the boat, number of sails, size of sails, etc .... and they estimate one rating number for TOD racing usually.

Carry on with killing your N20 class as quickly as you can..



crac.sailregattas.com
Re: Nacra 20 owners please chime in here [Re: Mark Schneider] #233891
06/21/11 12:34 PM
06/21/11 12:34 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline OP
veteran
TeamChums  Offline OP
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
I'm getting some popcorn now.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
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