This might be of interest - I found a site that is conducting a poll on opinions about Olympic sailing classes.

Sailing 1st Poll

(You have to take a quiz on knowledge of Olympic Sailing before you get to vote - I bombed badly!) The Tornado is currently running about the same as the Mistral and 49er, but well behind the Laser, 470 and Europe dinghy.

There is also a write-in option. The A class has marginal support, although in any event I know the Aust. class association has previously ruled out supporting Olympic status on the grounds that it would damage the broad popularity of the class. It attributes its current strong popularity to it being a development class, and believes Olympic status would curtail this.

I'm curious to know whether people think there are any other cats that should be in the Olympics. Despite the undoubted quality of the Tornado, does its current cost relative to other classes warrant a different option?

Mark.

Simply, the Olympic committee should get that SMOD stone they have for a brain out of their heads and introduce formula classes like F18 cats and formula windsurfing into their precious event. There is now more than enough proof that formula racing is fair, inexpensive and more succesful on a international stage.

I mean who races a Vanguard vector or laser 2000 anyway ? These have hardly an international footprint. F18 class has world championship of over 100 boats and crews.

Same applies for the A-cat class

Wouter

Wouter: Why fix something that is not broken ?

I dont find the Tornado so expensive, considering that it has a competitive lifespan of 10 years or so. The used market is also quite good (at least in Europe).

I dont know how long a Formula cat is competitive. But i know Formula windsurfers changes equipment 'all the time'.

If F-18 became olympic, would that promote F-18 or scare people away from F-18 ?
I think the australian A-class is on the right track, avoiding olympic dreams and disappointments.

In my opinion, you have to make a conscious desision to get into olympic class sailing. If you decide to get serious about it, the price of the boat is not your greatest cash drain. Travelling/living abroad and lost salaries due to a lot of sailing instead of working is what makes it expensive.

Wouter: Over 100 teams for the F-18 worlds. At the Tornado worlds 2003 at Cadiz there are over 70 teams. Starting 18.09.03.

http://www.cadizworlds2003.com

Many Tornado sailors also participate in the F18 class..

I dont think the number of boats competing should decide what classes to use in the Olympics. We would all be sailing Optimists if that was the case


The Tornado was specifically designed for the Olympics (i.e. it won the Olympic evaluation event in '67), and has since then been refined to todays standard. Since then the Tornado has been the Olympic multihull.
These days the IOC wants to cut down on the number of sports and athletes competing. The Olympics has become so big that very few countries are able to host the games.

I'm more worried that IOC decides to drop multihull sailing, rather than which multihull sails the Olympics.


(But of course, I can not and will not deny that the Tornado is a beautiful boat to sail)

Rolf
Tornado NOR-10384, so of course I'm biased

Of course I intended to express that the Olympic committee should introduce a Formula based class into the olympic in addition to the Tornado class (which in my opinion is a Formula based class itself).

No matter how we look at it the mono's are over represented; The percentage of cat sailors is bigger than is reflected in the olympic sailing setup. And besides what is the difference between Ygnling and a Soling ?

I know the A-cats turned away from the olympics because the committee required that the A-cat became more like a One-design class before it had a chance to be voted in. They declined, which I think was the best choice.

Not the cat scene must change but the Olympic committee must chance. Everything in the cat world is going formula. Even the Tornado is formula like in its setup. WHy, for example it specifies only the maximum dimensions of things like the spi and allows all different shapes as long as it measures in. I can make my hulls from styrofoam and ducktape as long as it fits the templates for the Tornado hull design and is regarded to be safe in operation. That feels like a formula class to me.

I also sail some 49-er in my spare time and since the company decided to go with a different sailmaker and now our sail from teh former sailmaker who were legal just a short time ago aren't legal anymore. Just because the name on the sail changed. And it is still inferiour in quality to modern formula based cat sails.

And I do think that voting in a class into the olympics on its attendence number at world championship is valid. Why should a unknown laser 2000 be preferred over an F18 class merely because the laser 2000 satisfies the monopolist, bad quality, SMOD format ?

Same applies to formula windsurfing.

And yes Nils I know that other factors are far more expensive in an Olympic campaign. My point rather is that the whole argument for a SMOD on the grounds of costs is a useless one for this very reason. A H16 in the olympics will be just as expensive as an formula class like the F18.

And your comment :"I don't know how long a formula cat is competive" Is unfounded.

Why do you think that a Formula based class will not be competitive for a long time ? Is there a reason why a SMOD class will always be more competitive than a Formula class ? Do you really think that an BCM Cirrus F18 or AHPC Capricorn F18 (to name but two of the top quality product in this class) has anything less than the same competitive life span than say a H16 or other SMOD class.

I dare to make a bet that there are actually several times better in quality of build and length of competitive lifespan. We all know that some designs are less good than other in building quality but then again the same applied to
Tornado's of different make. So that is not the reason to keep out the formula classes.

But I have a funny feeling that the cat sailors will do their own thing no matter what is decided. We have been doing just that for several decades now and we are quick comfortable in this setup. We all know that being a top tornado or F18 crew is a very big achievement which doesn't underdo for any 49-er or soling crew.

Wouter

First, the Tornado is a classic one-design class. It is not a manufactures class, like most of the cats today. It has it's roots in an era when most catamaran racers built their own boats and thought these new "hobies" were great for people who were not skilled enough to build or assemble their own boats. The rules for the Tornado are consistent with other one design classes. (For example the Taipan 4.9 looks like it borrowed a whole lot from the Tornado Rules.) The intent of the rules are to promote fair competition, allow innovation, encourage durability, and prevent cost escalation. What this means is, if you can build it out of commonly available components, fine . If it requires expensive custom fabrication with no paybacks except speed or it makes existing boat obsolete, probably not. By the way you can't build a Tornado out of Styrofoam and duct tape. It can be wood, fiberglass, resin, and approved core material. Also the measurer has the right to refuse a certificate if you don't meet the intent of the rule, for example BALSA WOOD and duct tape.


Second, I doubt the Olympic Committee would care to return to formula racing. The original Olympic Classes were formula. The nightmares these formula classes caused is why they went to one design. For one thing the Olympic Committee is afraid of country level manipulation ( 30 minutes before the "deadline" a manufacturer introduces what they think is a superior design and remarkably only sailors from that country were able to purchase boats before the deadline)This is probably not true but most of the world thinks it is.


Third, the Olympic Committee is not sailing organization. I'm not sure it's a sports organization. It is a political organization. Poorer countries get to vote too and most of them would prefer if all sailing were like the Laser. You don't even have to own a competitive one, you can just charter one at the event. (personally I don't like this, you get beat just as badly by the top sailors and you can't blame the boat) I am willing to bet at least $5 (total and I won't bet more than 1 person) that if another cat is added to the Olympics, it will fill a special need, a boat designed to make women really competitive for example or maybe even as a replacement for a skiffs, since skiffs are perceived as too difficult to sail by a large percentage of the world.


I do not think there is much of a chance for a formula class, today. From a world population perspective, very few people race F18. Also the Olympic committe has been the butt of a lot of jokes about what most of the world considers strange sports. For example, that thing were you slide a rock on the ice and someone else sweeps the ice with a broom. If F18 catches on in Asia or South America you might have a shot

Carl Bohannon
US782

Wouter: regarding the life span of a competitive F18.

No offence or 'talking down' the F-18's intended !

Within the Tornado class the Marstrøms are the benchmark, and they have a competitive life of 10 years or more. They dont break easily (like the earlier Tornadoes). I just dont know how the F18's from diverse manufacturers hold up over time. I spoke of Marstrøm buildt Tornadoes. If we were to compare any F-18 boat to a Marstrøm Tornado, I dont think the Tornado would come disfavorable out of the test.

I dont know how to argue for another cat class, while simultanously argueing for fewer keelboats. I believe that the IOC will limit the sailing event to just skiffs in the near future, 29'er and 49'er. I base this on the fact that sailing has not become a major 'TV sport' yet. While golf and other 'new' olympic sports has. At the same time, sailing is one of most demanding events to stage for a host nation. The IOC will probably prefer sports that attracts viewers in front of the TV sets in the future.


Your point about the Tornado class being kind of a 'Formula light' class is a valid camparison. Lots of restrictions on the materials used, hull forms and foil shapes tough. We are voting about allowing a carbon mast this year..

Wouter: In your opinion, why should the IOC keep the Tornado and not simply replace it with the F-18's ?

I have to agree with Carl Bohannon on point 1,2 and partly on point 3. But since Norway walked away with silver in 'curling' during the last winter olympics I can not agree with his last point

Also, it is some good reading about just this at:

http://www.sailing.org/Article_Content.asp?ArticleID=2069

Where both Wouter and Carl expresses their views..


Rolf

In general the Marstrom Tornado wins over several F18's in the field of quality but I'm forced to say that when comparing the Tornado with BCM Cirrus F18 (current world champion) and an AHPC build F18 just three weeks ago that I'm not sure. I've seen tornado's looking worse than these two F18's did. The stiffness of the Cirrus is trully remarkable. I've sailed the recreational version when working for the sailing school for two years where it was also rented out and it did hold up really well. It took the abuse with a big smile and it felt like new after more then two years intensive use. So I think it comes down to which F18 you take , just a a marstrom Tornado is different from a Reg White Tornado.


>>Your point about the Tornado class being kind of a 'Formula light' class is a valid camparison. Lots of restrictions on the materials used, hull forms and foil shapes tough. We are voting about allowing a carbon mast this year..

Indeed more strikt in rules, that is true, but there is quite a lot them can be altered by the crews and quite a lot is altered by crews. Okay hulls and foils are rules upon but large differences can be found in sailcut and material as well as in the fittings and block if not to say trampoline layout (Centre sheeting - non center sheeting). Of course you can't make a tornado from duct tape. But a crew is allowed to enter with timber hull , epoxy hull, vinylester hull or polyester hull. And the boat maybe build privately or bij various builders therefor I consider it a formula class with a strikt rulesset.


>>Wouter: In your opinion, why should the IOC keep the Tornado and not simply replace it with the F-18's ? Wouter: In your opinion, why should the IOC keep the Tornado and not simply replace it with the F-18's ?

That is actually a very good question Nils.

If the olympic committee is really looking to cut down on sailing then my ultimate olympic class layout will look like this :

Laser 1
49-er
Soling
Mumm 30 or melges 24
Formula surfboard (freestyle and speed racing)
Formula Kite surfing (free style and speed racing)
Tornado
A-cat

And if the A-cat doesn't want to play than I would choose Formula 16 in the solo setup.

The surfboards and kite board will bring in the spectacle and the television interests. So will the 49-ers and Tornado as they as the best go fast craft. The mumm or melges will be a great team sailing class a la america's cup ; maybe this could be a match race event.

The soling will not be sailed in the match race form and only in fleet form. And the laser 1 is just the best singlehanded monohull and the least expensive route to olympic sailing.

This will be a good reflection of the sailing crossection of the world with the least amount of boats

Personally I think that both the mumm and soling class should be for mixed teams (no seperate men and women classes)

I think the A-cat is suited enough to be mixed class too. It is not like you have to have big muscles for that rig and platform.

Maybe the 49. tornado and laser 1 classes should be split into mens and womens.

If the A-cat class is replace by Formula 16 than that class will have to be a mixed class too

Wouter

Wouter, what else do you know about this AHPC Capricorn? The Capricorn website claimed in Dec. '02 that AHPC was to start production in January '03. The AHPC site says nothing about it. There is information on the International F18 site about a AHPC F18 derived from the Taipan 5.7, but as far as I can tell nothing came of that. Any clue what AHPC is up to with F18?

Mark.

I believe the idea of SMOD clases for Olympics was a Julian Bethwaite idea.

Hi Mark,
Before we pick classes, there is much that must be understood about the obligations/requirements of an Olympic sailing class before class selections can be made.
Any sport/activity practiced in the Olympics could be classified as an 'extreme athletic event' today. Why are these events so extreme? In many athletic events it takes an extreme level of difficulty or contest to separate the very best athletes in the world according to skill/ability.
In events such as running, it requires only a group of athletes and a track to run on and a contested distance. First one to the finish line is the winner.
In a contest where the athlete operates a machine or uses sophisticated equipment over a contested course, then the characteristics of the equipment and the course become very important to the overall contest. It is of the upmost importance that the equipment and the course, which make up the total contest, not inhibit the athelte's ability to show his skill but demand the most from him. So what does this mean to us in sailing and Olympic class selection?
I have heard people say that the Optimist Pram could be used in the Olympic contest; 'the boat makes no difference'. Well, we can all see that the Optimist Pram does not meet the above criteria with adults sailing the boats. Using prams in the Olympics would be like using the 'bunny slope' for the Gaint Downhill in the snow skiing contest. The winner might be separated by an elapsed time margin in the fourth or fifth decimal place and was due to something that had nothing to do with skiing skill. So, to be sure that the best skier is selected based on skill, the contest designers put the skiers on a slope that is 'not at all popular' and pushes the skiers up to speeds of 80 miles per hour to 'let the skill come out'. The same is true of Bobsled racing etc. The contest has got to be difficult enough to 'let the skill come out'.
So what does this mean to us in sailboat racing? Basically it means that faster is better. A faster boat will speed up more or slow down more due to proper or improper sail trim. A faster boat will increase its lead 'more' by going the right way after having made the correct tactical decision relative to a boat that made the wrong tactical decision. This increase in lead is earned and is a true reflection of superior skill in the sport.
Conclusion: Higher speed sailboats make better Olympic sailing contest than slow boats.
Now, what about boat/class popularity? Boat/class popularity, size, is not an important Olympic requirement. 'Is sailing a popular enough sport to deserve Olympic status' is the question dealing with 'size'. Once it has been decided that sailing deserves to be in the Olympics, then the decision of classes to be sailed in the Olympics should be based on the contest they provide. Do they provide much opportunity to 'let the skill come out'? Boats that do 'let the skill come out' often are considered 'demanding'. The general sailing piblic does not like 'demanding' boats. The general sailing public likes easy to sail boats which are slower and powered down and are less demanding. If anything popularity means mediocrity and mediocrity has no place in the Olympics. Only a small fraction of the people on the earth are interested in Olympic sailing. These people are very enthusiastic about their sport. They love sailing very demanding boats but most people don't. This means it is a natural and normal characteristic of an Olympic sailing class that it be small in number. Again, coming down the side of a mountain at 80+ miles per hour isn't popular. The bunny slope is far more popular. Running 23+ miles in a little over 2 hours is not popular but it is used in the Olympics to determine the best distance runner. Popularity, class size, is not a valid criteria for Olympic class selection. Quality of contest, 'let the skill come out', is what it is all about.
Boats that tack very slowly and pitchpole very easily are out the door. They inhibit the sailor from showing his skill. The Olympic sailing contest should be limited by sailing ability only and not by poor boat design no matter how popular the boat is.
Food for thought.
Bill

Nice essay Bill your opinions certainly echo my own.

One point I would like to explore further, however, is the:

>>>'Is sailing a popular enough sport to deserve Olympic status....'

Should the popularity of a sport be a criterium which determines whether it be included in the Olympics? I say, 'Not necessarily.'.

Lets look at two sports to support my feeling on this. The Hammer throw and tennis. I don't think I've ever met anyone who spends his/her time throwing hammers around (except when they happen to hit their thumb with one) but I know plenty of people that play tennis. I feel the hammer throw is a very important part of the Olympics but the inclusion of tennis is ridiculous as with golf, soccer and field hockey, all of which are far more popular that hammer throwing.

The Olympics should be for more traditional individual sports - sports that could broadly be descrided as martial arts i.e. arts of war. Running, jumping, throwing, rowing, swimming, gymnastics are all in a sense martial arts as they are integral parts of combat. I'm not suggesting that we include the grenade toss or the trench dig as events but I'm sure you get my drift.

It may surprise you but sailing is a martial art in that transporting a fighting unit accross the water is a vital skill in fighting.

Get rid of tennis, hockey etc. but keep the hammer throw, javelin, discus and sailing. Keep the traditional martial arts as the olympics. The olympics were once a very interesting event because you got to see the sports that you never would get to see otherwise. Who wants to switch to the Olympic Games to watch yet another game of tennis, which you can see every day of the week, or yet another round of golf?.

BTW. I feel the new multihull class should be either a single handed multi-hull or a womens class.

I don't think a development class such as the A-class is suitable as a single hander. Perhaps the Taipan 4.9 cat rigged. It is very similar to the Tornado in the way its class rules are set up. The 4.9 Sloop would also be a very good womens multi-hull. Both boats are high tech enough that they test the skills of the sailors very well. Perhaps the inclusion of a kite on these boats would be suitable a'la F16.

I must declare here that I sail a 4.9 Cat.

Rob.

Mark,

>>Wouter, what else do you know about this AHPC Capricorn? The Capricorn website claimed in Dec. '02 that AHPC was to start production in January '03. The AHPC site says nothing about it.

Well I can't comment on the dates given here, but I do know that AHPC "are"/"will be" offering these.

A few times the Capricorn design came up in discussions I had that were mainly on the topic of the Taipans and some F16-Taipan class business. The points mainly focussed on technical details and with that I know they are building. I don't know why the AHPC website doesn't mention the Capricorn, I had never noticed that. But the claim that AHPC will build the capricorn is true. Maybe the project is being delayed as many projects often are.


>>There is information on the International F18 site about a AHPC F18 derived from the Taipan 5.7, but as far as I can tell nothing came of that. Any clue what AHPC is up to with F18?


That Taipan F18 project of an earlier time is well known to me; actually one of these (I think only 2 or three were build) was sailed by a fellow club member in a National race last august. (REM RACE) I heard that it also race in the Dutch F18 nationals.

I don't know what the plans with respect to this version are.

With respect to the capricorn I think AHPC is very serious and hence they are serious "with the F18". How this will be marketed and offered I (again) don't know. Maybe they do it under the name AHPC or maybe Dr Fisher himself will build the network that offers the capricorn and AHPC only makes the platform.

Not many answers here I'm afraid; like I said I know more of technical details of the Capricorn and the "Taipan 5.7 turned into F18" than I know of the project itself.

And before the question about what I know in a technical sense is put forward I must stress that I will not tell these things on a public forum or writing.

The info was part of private conversations and without AHPC approving I will not disclose the info expressed to me.

WOuter