| Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Timbo]
#246326 03/28/12 12:05 PM 03/28/12 12:05 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Tradewinds, No... I am sure people love it... but it's too far a drive for a party/regatta.... YMMV.
If you could get your summer cat fight type party at Maragertiville.. you could get sailors to give it a tumble but it would be a regional event. Do you need another regional event?
I will flip it around... would you drive to American Yacht Club's 2 day HPDO... for a OD regatta with 110 boats last year and a banquet? (just F18's bother to play)
By and large... it's the SINGLE event a year NA Championship that gets sailors (who are so inclined) to strap on wheels and get to the regatta. AND THAT IS A POTENTIAL ISSUE FOR US MULTIHULL CHAMPIONSHIP In Todds terms... it's nothing special....
What makes a regatta special? What makes an elite Sailor? What should your OD class do about the US Multihull Championsips?
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#246327 03/28/12 12:07 PM 03/28/12 12:07 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | John Williams has led you to believe that US Sailing is making money on this gig.. False! US Sailing does not collect your entry fee... If you want to make a killing because you sell sponsorships like crazy and can pocket the entry fee.... Have at it. Color me flabbergasted. Mark, I only post in this topic when something needs to be corrected. US Sailing absolutely makes money on the Championships. Every one of them. They keep over half the sponsorship cash, and charge the host $50 per sailor. It was $25 per sailor when I started volunteering in 1999. Do you have facts to refute this? I have several years worth of budgets - actual numbers on paper from hosts. Edit - and I have no problem with US Sailing making money.
Last edited by John Williams; 03/28/12 12:11 PM.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: pgp]
#246328 03/28/12 12:12 PM 03/28/12 12:12 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | USS has promotion of the Olympics as its primary purpose? If this is true and Olympians rig and tune their own boats then tuning is part of the discipline.
I'll risk being labeled a heretic: NOT permitting individual teams to tune their own boats was a major flaw of the old system.
Tuning is part of the discipline, tuning is good. We had a tough enough time addressing boat maintenance between rotations and getting rotations fast (10 minutes on the beach was a great rotation)...imagine the delay if everyone was re-tuning their spreader rake, diamond wire tension, mast rake, etc. etc....Additionally, in the case of charter boats, what if someone made that adjustment and exceeded a setpoint, damaged the boat, and cost us a boat in our rotation. It just wouldn't be practical in the old scenario to allow the teams to make that level of adjustment. The goal was to take most of "the boat" out of the equation and put the result at the hand of the sailors. A range of adjustments were usually established (light to heavy crew weight, light to heavy wind) and adjustments were put in the middle of this range. Sailor adjustments were pretty much limited to mainsheet cleat angle and trap height.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Timbo]
#246329 03/28/12 12:16 PM 03/28/12 12:16 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Here's my take on getting sponsorship money. When I talked with the VP of Marketing at Delta Air Lines about throwing some money my way for new sails, he said he would rather spend a whole lot more money, to sponsor an EVENT, vs. a single individual. Why? Because at an Event, they put up banners and put their stickers on ALL the boats, etc. Look no further than the "Audi Melges 20 Championships". http://www.melges20.com/ Audi didn't sponsor one person, they sponsored the Entire EVENT. Also, I think I saw some big mono-race sponsored by VW, and then there's the Heineken Cup in St. Maarten. http://www.heinekenregatta.com/ Or the Mount Gay Rum regattas. http://www.sailbarbados.com/events_MG.htmlOr the Rolex Regattas: http://www.rolexcupregatta.com/index2.php That's the direction this needs to go, in my opinion. The sponsors want visability, they want top billing, so give it to them. Make it a huge beach party for the spectators, beach volly ball, a spectator fleet of big cats, maybe some Hobie Wave rentals off the beach for the on-lookers, stuff like that. If I were king, here's what I would do. I'd get someone huge to sponsor a week long event, but it would really be two 3 day events. The first 3 days would be a big all classses regatta, which would serve as the Nationals for All cat classes, ie. you run the A's, the F18's, the F16's, the Hobie 16's, the Waves, etc. all at once, on 3 separate courses of course, but everyone all in one general location, big parties every night, like the mono guys do at Key West Race Week. At the end of the first 3 day Nationals event, the top 3 from each class get to then race in the Alter Cup regatta, wich would be held on 10 (or 20) chartered boats, like our traditional Alter Cup, but the event sponsor is paying for the charter fee. The rest of us can hang out and watch, or maybe have a side regatta, or a Pro-Am, or a "Get a newbie out" type regatta, on a separate course, while the Alter Cup is going on for the last 3 days. It would be like Tradewinds, where all the classes get together, and then it would be the Alter Cup, where just the top crews from each class race. Rolex already sponsors all US Sailing Championships in addition to other sponsors...which, in the past, has limited any other sponsorship the individual event itself can garner. I have not been part of the sponsorship conversation as of late, so am not qualified to comment on the current arrangement.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: John Williams]
#246330 03/28/12 12:17 PM 03/28/12 12:17 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | John Williams has led you to believe that US Sailing is making money on this gig.. False! US Sailing does not collect your entry fee... If you want to make a killing because you sell sponsorships like crazy and can pocket the entry fee.... Have at it. Color me flabbergasted. Mark, I only post in this topic when something needs to be corrected. US Sailing absolutely makes money on the Championships. Every one of them. They keep over half the sponsorship cash, and charge the host $50 per sailor. It was $25 per sailor when I started volunteering in 1999. Do you have facts to refute this? I have several years worth of budgets - actual numbers on paper from hosts. Edit - and I have no problem with US Sailing making money. +1 And Mark wants me to DONATE my boat for use. How'bout F*** Off and call Obama ,he'll give you a bailout, I'm sure.You've got alot of nerve Mark. Per your response to my last post, you either need to work on your reading skills or your spin/bullshite skills are already honed, I can't figure out which it is.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Jake]
#246331 03/28/12 12:33 PM 03/28/12 12:33 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | USS has promotion of the Olympics as its primary purpose? If this is true and Olympians rig and tune their own boats then tuning is part of the discipline.
I'll risk being labeled a heretic: NOT permitting individual teams to tune their own boats was a major flaw of the old system.
Tuning is part of the discipline, tuning is good. We had a tough enough time addressing boat maintenance between rotations and getting rotations fast (10 minutes on the beach was a great rotation)...imagine the delay if everyone was re-tuning their spreader rake, diamond wire tension, mast rake, etc. etc....Additionally, in the case of charter boats, what if someone made that adjustment and exceeded a setpoint, damaged the boat, and cost us a boat in our rotation. It just wouldn't be practical in the old scenario to allow the teams to make that level of adjustment. The goal was to take most of "the boat" out of the equation and put the result at the hand of the sailors. A range of adjustments were usually established (light to heavy crew weight, light to heavy wind) and adjustments were put in the middle of this range. Sailor adjustments were pretty much limited to mainsheet cleat angle and trap height. NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing. Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap. Maybe sprinters should change shoes between heats, pole vaulters exchange poles, tennis players exchange rackets...
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#246332 03/28/12 12:38 PM 03/28/12 12:38 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider OP
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | And Mark wants me to DONATE my boat for use. How'bout F*** Off Hmm alsail.... might be tougher then you think to get people to lend their boat...
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Team_Cat_Fever]
#246333 03/28/12 12:46 PM 03/28/12 12:46 PM |
Joined: Jan 2004 Posts: 1,884 Detroit, MI mbounds
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Posts: 1,884 Detroit, MI | And Mark wants me to DONATE my boat for use. . . . . <whaargarble> . . . . Just as a point of reference, at the Championship of Champions that I sailed in last fall, ALL the boats (20 Flying Scots) were donated by club members (Dallas Corinthian). In return, the donors received significantly discounted new sails (main, jib, spin) with only 4 days of sailing on them. All the boats were set up more-or-less identically (some of the control layouts were different). Everybody raced each boat once (in every race). Rotations were made on the water, utilizing a floating dock that was towed out to the racing area each day. | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#246334 03/28/12 12:49 PM 03/28/12 12:49 PM |
Joined: Jan 2005 Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. Timbo
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Posts: 6,049 Sebring, Florida. | Re. the tuning and rotating boats, if we got enough boats so that each team had one, or limit the amount of teams to only 10, then you wouldn't have to share boats, ie. no rotations, so each team could tweak their prebend and mast rake to their liking, for the entire regatta.
You'd get in a lot more races per day without having to rotate boats after every race as well.
Blade F16 #777
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: pgp]
#246336 03/28/12 12:52 PM 03/28/12 12:52 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | ... NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing. ... Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap.
Aaah, but they DO! It's called the NASCAR IROC series (Internatinoal Race of Champions). They race in identically prepared cars. In their case, however, they can afford for each driver to have their own car. The Alter Cup Championships in the past couldn't afford 20 boats or an event with only 10 teams...so a compromise was created. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Race_of_Champions
Jake Kohl | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: mbounds]
#246337 03/28/12 12:53 PM 03/28/12 12:53 PM |
Joined: Sep 2002 Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. Team_Cat_Fever
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Posts: 3,224 Roanoke Island ,N.C. | And Mark wants me to DONATE my boat for use. . . . . <whaargarble> . . . . Just as a point of reference, at the Championship of Champions that I sailed in last fall, ALL the boats (20 Flying Scots) were donated by club members (Dallas Corinthian). In return, the donors received significantly discounted new sails (main, jib, spin) with only 4 days of sailing on them. All the boats were set up more-or-less identically (some of the control layouts were different). Everybody raced each boat once (in every race). Rotations were made on the water, utilizing a floating dock that was towed out to the racing area each day. It's not the point of donating a boat, that's not the problem. It's donating a boat under the guise that the event can't afford to do it any other way. That's BS. Maybe it's time to let the Alter Cup end it's useful life in a dignified way ,instead of turning it into something else that diminishes it's status. Start something else if wanted but start with a clean sheet.
"I said, now, I said ,pay attention boy!"
The cure for anything is salt water - sweat, tears, or the sea Isak Dinesen If a man is to be obsessed by something.... I suppose a boat is as good as anything... perhaps a bit better than most. E. B. White
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: pgp]
#246338 03/28/12 12:53 PM 03/28/12 12:53 PM |
Joined: Oct 2002 Posts: 606 Maryland Kris Hathaway
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Posts: 606 Maryland | NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing.
Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap.
Maybe sprinters should change shoes between heats, pole vaulters exchange poles, tennis players exchange rackets... It was IROC (International Race of Champions) that had identically prepared race cars. The drivers came from all sorts of racing "classes"; Indy, NASCAR, GT, Grand-AM...etc. Makes complete sense. It's about the driver. Don't mock what has been a great event with poor analogies.
Kris Hathaway | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#246339 03/28/12 12:53 PM 03/28/12 12:53 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California John Williams
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Posts: 3,293 Long Beach, California | Before the Hoyt-Jolley Fund was generously donated by Bill Jolley (thanks to Gordon Isco), the Alter Cup was supported by donated boats.
John Williams
- The harder you practice, the luckier you get - Gary Player, pro golfer
After watching Lionel Messi play, I realize I need to sail harder.
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#246340 03/28/12 12:54 PM 03/28/12 12:54 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | I've heard any number of complaints about too many races in a day! It's a speed event not endurance. Endurance is for events like Tybee.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Timbo]
#246341 03/28/12 12:54 PM 03/28/12 12:54 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Re. the tuning and rotating boats, if we got enough boats so that each team had one, or limit the amount of teams to only 10, then you wouldn't have to share boats, ie. no rotations, so each team could tweak their prebend and mast rake to their liking, for the entire regatta.
You'd get in a lot more races per day without having to rotate boats after every race as well. True, but then entry fees would double from an already high figure because it's harder to afford a regatta of that magnitude with only 10 entry fees.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Kris Hathaway]
#246342 03/28/12 12:55 PM 03/28/12 12:55 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing.
Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap.
Maybe sprinters should change shoes between heats, pole vaulters exchange poles, tennis players exchange rackets... It was IROC (International Race of Champions) that had identically prepared race cars. The drivers came from all sorts of racing "classes"; Indy, NASCAR, GT, Grand-AM...etc. Makes complete sense. It's about the driver. Don't mock what has been a great event with poor analogies. I'm not mocking anything, though I will if I choose! Is IROC still around? Maybe the World Series should try playing with one set of gloves and bats. Some of the finest hitters in the world go to great lengths to make sure their bats are "just so".
Last edited by pgp; 03/28/12 01:02 PM.
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
| | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: pgp]
#246344 03/28/12 12:57 PM 03/28/12 12:57 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | NASCAR doesn't try to "take the boat out of the equation". Tuning is an essential part of sailing or any other type of racing.
Equally NASCAR doesn't have drivers change cars; the Olympics doesn't require a boat swap.
Maybe sprinters should change shoes between heats, pole vaulters exchange poles, tennis players exchange rackets... It was IROC (International Race of Champions) that had identically prepared race cars. The drivers came from all sorts of racing "classes"; Indy, NASCAR, GT, Grand-AM...etc. Makes complete sense. It's about the driver. Don't mock what has been a great event with poor analogies. I'm not mocking anything, though I will if I choose! Is IROC still around? Funny you should ask...similar to what we're faced with, they couldn't find sponsors to sustain the event they'd had in place since the 70's and sold everything of in 2008. Just like the Alter Cup, they took in champions from other driving disciplines (mostly oval track stuff though).
Jake Kohl | | | Re: US Sailing Championship Committee
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#246346 03/28/12 01:00 PM 03/28/12 01:00 PM |
Joined: Jan 2009 Posts: 5,525 pgp
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Posts: 5,525 | A lot of top athletes have all sorts of weird quirks about their equipment!
Can you imagine playing the Masters with one set of clubs?
Pete Pollard Blade 702
'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.
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