Hi guys,

I think I read somewhere either here or on the Open Forum that someone had put a 2:1 sheeting system on their spinnaker (not like Rick`s Hooter article, but permanent 2:1, possibly tied off at the ratchet block mounting). Rick`s idea has it`s advantages, but I don`t want to have to fiddle with it.
I`d just like to know if anyone has done it, and if there are any problems, solutions or comments.
My crew is also my fiance, and I`d like to keep it that way. After 3 days of racing her shoulder muscles are not too happy with me, so I`m looking at alternative sheeting ideas that will help her.

Cheers
Steve

Hi Steve,

I have my spinnaker sheets rigged with a 2:1 purchase. I like the setup a lot and have no plans to switch back. Without it, I would not be able to sail F16HP Uni because I'm not strong enough to handle the sheet by myself and sail. When setting up the 2:1 purchase, make sure the blocks that attached to the spinnaker are as close as possible to the clew. If not, they tend to hang up on the brindle. The only disadvantage with the 2:1 system is the added line on the tramp since the 2:1 system requires a longer sheet. I started with 72 ft long spinnaker sheet (5/16 Dia) but I think I am going to cut it shorter to somewhere around 55 ft. The ends of the sheet have clips on them so in very light winds, they can be unclipped from the ratched blocks so the sheet can be converted temporarially into a 1:1 purchase. I havn't tried unclipping them while racing so I don't know how it will work. There may be a problem if you have to put the 2:1 purchase back while racing.

Jennifer Lindsay
Taipan 4.9 #262

Thanks Jennifer,
Was going to put the blocks on fairly long tails, thanks for early warning, will attach them to the clew. Lucky for me my existing sheets are long enough to go 2:1 without buying new (they were damn long as 1:1 !)
I`m off to the boat shop to buy blocks, got a long-distance race this weekend.

Let me know how it works (or doesn't work) for you.

Jennifer
Taipan 4.9 #262

Works like a dream, thanks. We sailed a medium distance race (by your standards) on Saturday,about 37km long. Some very tight reaches with kite up in about 12-20 knots, crew out on the wire. Spinnaker was easy to sheet in & release, no snags gybing. After the race we realised that one of my ratchet blocks was even switched off, so we were using a free-running block ! I don`t think my crew would have held a 1:1 sheet even with ratchet on in those conditions, she would have been pulled through the blocks !
Sunday we raced 4 races in conditions varying from 12 knots to about 18 knots in the last race, again forgot to switch over the ratchet, in spite of that my crew could handle the spinnaker quite happily.
We`ll never go back !

Cheers
Steve

G'day Steve and the rest of the forum,

You've said above that you were sailing some tight reaches with your spi in 12-20 knots. I've just swapped my Taipan 4.9 Cat for a 4.9 with spi. The spi is unfortunately not F16 compliant as it's 21m2.

We sailed it for the first time yesterday and there seemed to be no way that we could sail much above a broad reach without the luff of the spi curling around and collapsing the Spi. We were sailing in about 5 knots only.

When you say "tight reaches" are you referring to a point of sail that is somewhere between a beam reach and close hauled? If so do you or anyone else have any suggestions as to why our spi is collapsing when I go higher than a broad reach.

Even if I did manage to sail higher without the spi collapsing I feel the chances of actually holding the boat down in anything over 5 knots are slim!!!

By the way, we got the boat moving beautifully on a broad reach - what a hoot!!! We are launching the spi out of a bag on the tramp and seem to be able to do this quite successfully and quickly. Perhaps 30 secs for drops and 20 for launches. I don't think I would bother with a snuffer as I'm sure we could improve on these times with practice.

David was having some trouble holding the spi sheet which is why I re-read this thread. I think 2:1 for our boat may be on the cards.

Rob.
Taipan 4.9 with spi "Blackadder" AUS135

Rob

If you have a crew on the 4.9, then 2:1 spinnaker sheets will create the biggest tangle of ropes ever. Not necessary. The Taipan is already small enough when you put all the spinnaker stuff on, 2:1 would be crazy. Put a ratchet on the tramp next to the jib rathet and a pulley on the front beam. Means that you are putting the most amount of rope around the ratchet releaving some of the load.

JC

Hi Rob,
Congratulations on getting a spin. That's one big spin! I've got a fairly recent Goodall spin (17.5) that is flatter than older cuts. The flatter cut does allow you to reach higher without curling the luff. So you may have a fuller cut. Also, there's a luff tension line you could play with. In very light winds I can sheet it fairly flat, tighten the luff, and go higher than a beam reach in very light zyphers (barely rippling the water).

REGARDLESS, there is definitely no way to reach higher than beam reach in 12-20knots without capsizing (on side; there's no pitchpole tendency w/spin)...unless crew weighs 500lbs. For perspective, this weekend I was flying a hull in 5knts with my 17.5m2 spin (cat rigged, solo) on a beam reach and could keep the hull up bearing off for a ways. When I've sailed the spin in a breeze I've always had to keep it deep to stay upright. It screams too. Steve's rig on the mosquito sounds like it's a lot different than the Taipan, and that may factor in.

Hi Rob,
Maybe a mis-communication, what I meant was some very tight reaches, ie as high as you could go in those conditions without capsizing, crew on the wire. What we`ve found with the Mozzie is that if you`re 2 out on the wire with the kite up, you`re reaching too high for a spinnaker, and a sloop without spinnaker will go past you, since 90% of the force in your spinnaker is now trying to push you sideways, and only 10% forwards. When I said "tight reaches" I meant relative to apparent wind. We had to clear a shallow point in the course, sometimes you had to take the kite down. It was probably slightly off a beam reach, making it too high to sail in those conditions. Sorry if I misled you into thinking we could close reach with kite up in 12-20 knots !
The cut of your spinnaker has a lot to do with it, more fullness in the luff will cause it to collapse earlier than a flatter cut. My kite was fuller in the luff, and I could`nt reach as tight as the rest of the guys, so I had the luff re-cut, much better now.
21sqm .... ARE YOU NUTS ?????
Our spinnaker is only 13sqm (projected area), probably about 15sqm of cloth (not sure how you measure spinnaker areas, flat or projected ?)

Cheers
Steve

Thanks all for your replies,

Steve,
I can tell you that a 21sqm spinnaker looks HUGE hanging off the front of the Taipan. It's actually quite awesome and has a large grin factor - a large grin factor in 5 knots... I suspect a large terror factor in 20 knots!!!

I didn't actually choose the spi size, it came with the boat. Trevor Brown who owned the boat before me sailed it Cat rigged with this spinnaker and launched it off the tramp on his own! He tells me he was unbeatable in under 8 knots, even by the Taipan 5.7's with spis. I believe him.

I think I might be in for some extreme sailing in the future

I'll experiment a bit with luff tension and sail a couple of races to see how she performs then I'll consider getting the luff recut if necessary.

Rob.

Rob,
I`ve found easing off a foot on the halyard, ie not pulling it up to the block, actually opens up the luff & makes the entry flatter, so you can reach higher. I don`t know why, just that it does !

Cheers
Steve

Welcome to the fraternity of sailors that like to go fast on downwind legs as well !

Almost as the feeling when you first stepped on a catamaran and experienced its speed for the first time, Not ?

>>The spi unfortunately is not F16 compliant as it is 21sqm. A smaller spi will have to wait for another day.

Best start with what you've got and upgrade when you find it is the hardware holding you back. I guess you are sheeting of the rearbeam. (Nobody has done it differently with a spi of that size on the taipan)

>>We are launching our spi out of a bag on the port side of the tramp.

Works well for the beginning. I still believe that manual launching and setting is a skill that any sailor must master even though eventually all go for a snuffer sooner or later. Manual handling does allow you to keep the kite in good condition for many years.


>>We are having a problem with the section of line that pulls the tack out getting twisted.

Never had that problem myself. Maybe take the line out completely, took out the twist and run it through the blocks again. If the line run straight from block to block or block to cleat than it is theoretically impossible to twsit the line. The line can only twist when it is lead around to make a special kind of loop that me look normal but rotates the line itself as well. However you must have a pretty weird setup if this is the case. I have never had this problem over the years while sailing several different spi boats. Itis not a typical problem and hence I don't think a swivel is required to solve it. Something is causing your spi halyard to behave differently, find out what it is.


>>We are throwing the halyard over the back of the boat before we drop. Any suggestions? We thought about putting a swivel at the tack.

I found that this cause noticeable extra drag when pulling the kite down. There is another way but it requires good crew work.

As the front man pulls the kite he just drops the halyard in the tramp. When the spi is raised both sailors NEVER touch it. Leave it as it fell. Don't tidy it up or its will form knots. The line will slide a little bit over itself but that is not a problem. When it is time to lower the kite. Graps the halyard near its cleat and let the line pass through you hand gently when passing it to the free hand of the skipper. Now coordinate your actions. Front man goes to the sheet to pull the kite down and on his mark the skipper uncleats the halyard and let the line run through his hand, shaking out any loops and knots that may form.

This all may sound awkward but it was the way it was done before the advent of snuffers and with a little practise you'll find you can get quite handy and fast like this. Skipper needs to pay attention to what he is doing though.

Another possibility is tho fit a two doublesheaved block underneath the trampoline. One fixed to the rearbeam the other to the end of a tensioned bungee cord. This will tack up the halyard when the spi is set. The part of halyard on the tramp is only some 7 to 8 mtr. And the trampoline length is about 2 mtr. or 2.6 when diagonal.

I alwaysed used the let lie on tramp approach. In distance races where you have more than enough time to accidently kick the line about and thus cause it to loop and knot up I always threw it overboard before lowering the kite. Normally it takes a few seconds for the line to untangle once in the water. The line behaved differently in the water than in air. In air the loops tighten, in water the tend to run themselfs to the end like a snake. This is not full proff though and the skipper still needs to guide the line and shake out any remaining issues. However it always did work fine for me. This is may sound complicated by with a little experience works well enough.

A 3rd approach that I thought up but never tried was to lead the halyard to the rearbeam then under the beam towards the spi pole under the bridles and than back again to the top of the kite. Now when the kite is raised the top of it will take the excess halyard with it without tangling with the jib.. You probably will need to take out some slack somewhere by using a bungee and ring or block.


>>We are also finding, as I mentioned in the other thread, that we don't seem to be able to sail much higher than a broad reach without the luff curling and the spi wanting to collapse. Any suggestions for this one?


Tighten the luff some more or accept that the low aspect 21 sq.mtr. kite with the given sailcut won't go higher. As said in other posts the leaner 17.5 sq. mtr. spis are cut flatter and their aspect ratio allow them to be carried higher. In the F16 class we quickly dicovered this but still a few larger kite were ordered by Aussie sailors. This is legacy.

I know from the sailmaker that some kites were recut (but I think those were intermediate sizes liek 18.5 and 19 sq. mtr.) and proved to be noticably better and I believe a little faster as well. If you hook up with other F16's I would argue to let you race as I really don't believe that the 21 sq.mtr. has an advantage over the F16 sized spi.

Still most is between ears anyway. I remember REM race 2001. Where I sailed a Prindle 18 with 17 sq.mtr. kite. I had the time of the day on the long Downwind leg (50 miutes). I can still see the turning head of the F18 and several F20 crews about having a Prindle 18 with a (much) smaller kite right among the front 15 % of the fleet. We overtook some 15 boats on this leg and were overtaken by only 1 tiger. I waste it all upwind as I completely F*cked up my diamond settings. All could trapeze upwind while we had to sit in. We were passed upwind like nobodies business. The day after I competely changed the settings (reduced prebend, lowered the tension by a factor 3; who set up this boat in the first place ?) and the boat came alive upwind. That was the last time I ever said :"How much difference can 5 turns on diamond wires make ?" Well that much especially if you combine it 5 turns on the spreader rake as well.

Anyway back to spinnakers


>>At the moment we are hanging the head of the spi directly of a saddle rivetted to the mast. Is this being a bit optimistic in expecting the saddle to take the load?

The saddle with take it. Saddle = eyestrap ? I'm more worried about your mast underrotation as a result of the spi load. This is not good, some say this may make your mast more receptable to breaking. It is defiantely not good for your mainsail aerodynamic. It sounds as if your taipan has been setup like a skiff. Large over sized and full cut spi with nothing more than a saddle as spi gate. This works on skiff that typically point much lower with a spi and will NEVER pull a spi close to beam reaching. It also assumes that your mast is not of the rotational type.

I would replace this setup with one decribed in the tech corner of the F16 webpage. You'll find the link somewhere more down on the whats new page. It show drawings and pics. Of the setups from which you can choose.


>>>By the way, we got the boat moving beautifully on a broad reach - what a hoot!!!

Yeah, Now do this in a tight racing fleet. Or like that Aussie crew did in a large mono, big cat regatta. I forgot the name of that event. It is in the public history corner of our F16 webpage.

F18's have as slogan :"Because life is too short to sail slowly !"

>>Perhaps 30 secs for drops and 20 for launches. I don't think I would bother with a snuffer as I'm sure we could improve on these times with practice.

You should be able to do this in 10 second with a little effort. Meaning from coming out of the trapeze to getting back out with spi set. With alot of practice you can come under 10 seconds. But that required close cooperation and coordination between crew and skipper. The boat becomes much more of a team effort with the kite. That is one aspect I really like about it.

On hint. If you ever want to do some racing with it than practise leeward mark roundings a lot ! It is not that it is difficult to do just that timing is ludicrously important here. Dropping a kite 1 or 2 second later easily wins you some 30 meters distance on your competition. With kite is feels like approaching the mark with jetfighter speed so you tend to drop the kite rather sooner than later to be safe only to find out that the boat bogges down immediately taking you some 15 seconds or more to even get to the mark let alone rounding it. Any competition more practiced will take several places by dropping the kite at the right time and almost right on the mark. Practicing this is alot of fun. Because being to late will put you 10's of meters past the mark which looses you time as well. Performing a clean and on the mark C rounding will give you a buzz. Truly !

Best way to round sound is wait till you're scared as hell. Drop is quickly and possbley a little low to the mark with the skipper staying in the trapeze or not depending on conditions on the expected upwind leg. Skipper helps crew with halyard. As soon as the crew has the kite fully in his hand the boat must round the mark. That would be perfect. Skipper stays out and starts on the upwind leg with the sail a little out. Crew pulls jib tight right after rounding the mark and before stuffing the spi. In the first meters of the upwind beat the crew stuffs the spi in the bag, tidies up quickly, Stuffing the spi sheet under the spi bag (that was what I did) and out of the way. Than pulls on the mainsail outhaul as needed. Maybe adjust rotation than moves out to the luff hull or trapeze while the skipper pulls the main in.

This is the fastest manual approach.


>>David was having some trouble holding the spi sheet which is why I re-read this thread. I think 2:1 for our boat may be on the cards.

Another option maybe to keep the 1 to system and have two fully encircled ratchetblocks on each side. This won't lower the reuired pull in force but will make holding it easier.

However a low aspect and full cut spi sail will remain a hand full no matter what.

What I normally did on F18's after a while of no spi sailing. When muscles has tuned down a bit. Was to have the spi sheet once over my upper arm (right above the elbow) than go back towards my hand and hold both pieces of line in my hand. Moving my elbox back and forth would give me just enough travell length to trim the spi. It is a much more powerful methode. Downside it that when the skipper stuffs up and read the oncoming gust wrong or is too late steering than you have to let go. Pull the spi back in and wrap it behind your arm again Which takes time.

Like I said earlier it all comes down to crew skipper cooperation and coordination. Both can bring the other into trouble and make life much easier for the other.

This should get you going for now.

Good luck and have fun !

Wouter

Thanks Wouter,

As usual a very thorough answer. You have given me plenty to think about and to practice.

One query though:

>>Best way to round sound is wait till you're scared as hell. Drop is quickly and possbley a little low to the mark with the skipper staying in the trapeze or not depending on conditions on the expected upwind leg.<<

On a usual marks to port course the above scenario would require dropping the spi while on a port tack. Our boat is set up with the bag on the port side front of the trampoline so that we launch it after rounding the windward mark (to port) on a starboard tack without needing to jibe first. Is it possible to launch and drop the spinnaker on a port tack with the bag on the port side of the boat? A bag on each side perhaps?

Rob.

>>Best way to round sound is wait till you're scared as hell. Drop is quickly and possbley a little low to the mark with the skipper staying in the trapeze or not depending on conditions on the expected upwind leg.<<

Low on the mark meaning ; a little below the layline as without a spi you have to head up a bit to keep speed.

I don't how you bag is fitted. We all had a centred bag overhere with either two openings (one to either side) or a a central one in front.

The bag is not the problem, the lines are. When a bagged spi is douced on starboard than it's can be raised on port. However spi can be raises and dropped on the windward side of the boat although that requires a slightly different technic.

I must add that I haven't really done these windward technics myself (I think I've lowered it like that once)

Windward Dropping :

Pull the winward sheet so that the spi clew is pulled over the forestay. When it does that uncleat the halyard and pull the spi in much like you would when on teh lee side of the boat. The jib will guide the spi towards you and prevent the spi from flapping to much or being blown to lee to much. Name of the game, gently when cleated and quick as soon as uncleated.

Windward raising (never done that)

Move spi to luff of boat well away from diamonds and stuff. Put knee on it. Grap the halyard. Yell "Go" to the skipper, so he dips the boat downwind and then rounds up again. You pull the spi up around the going deep part of the curve quickly while raising you knee to let the spi go. Let is drag a little the prevent the spi from being blow onto the spreaders etc.

It is always adviceable to have bungees tied to your spreaders and stays to prevent the spi from being blow past the spreaders and hook there.

Of course dipping the boat straight down wind momentarily and then rounding up again allows you to pull and lower to spi on any side you want. You don't have to jibe.

And ohh, I think Steve is right ; loosen the luff to reach higher instead of tighten it. I never reached much with a spi can you tell ? With me if was always downwind, downwind, downwind to the C mark.

Wouter