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Hobie 21-SE & Me #247819
05/05/12 04:13 PM
05/05/12 04:13 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline OP
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Bille  Offline OP
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I'm now about 3 weeks out from actually sailing my Hobie 21 SE

Holding off on my plans to convert the Tramp.. to a hard deck.
Instead i found a Guy with a trampoline in his back yard, who
let me learn to walk on it ; so i Duck-taped up the sharp objects
on my Fakies and learned to stand on this surface. NO Flips ! HA !!

The Rear cross-beam i cut in half because it was stuck and couldn't get
my new toy home from Northern Cal , is spliced with an inner sleeve of
3" inch 6061-T6 alum with a wall of 3/8" + a Glass/epoxy spacer.
If any bending is noted in the
near future then i can wrap a 3oz glass on the X-beam to act as a dissimilar metals
barrier then wrap 10oz Stitched carbon (+ - 45) till it has a 1/4" wall. that would be WAY stronger than
stock. I kinda think my 21" inner splice will work Fine.
Trailing with a 9.5ft wide package may be fun ---------------------NOT !

The traveler will need some thought.

I found a some-what decent fabric to make New tramps for me Hobie ;
so next i break out my sewing machine & I'll show pictures of how it turns out ...
Good or Bad. Anyone use this fabric before ? :

http://www.sailrite.com/Trampoline-Mesh-Soft-White-63#

Hopefully i can use the same for my Wings as well.

OK -- here is a Question on the sails :

In the pick below --
Is the one out front -- the Cat version of a Drifter for a monohull ?
I don't have that sail, but probably won't need it where i live, it bowls
really hard on lake Mohave.
Blows Hard and cycles from 13 to 30mph on any given day, ( sometimes several times
a day.
I bin kiteboarding this lake for 5 years now; 2.5 of them on prosthetics.


Anyone Know the actual aria of the Main sail on a 21-SE ?

I kinda had the idea of sewing in reefing points on my Main and reducing it
down to what a Hobie-16 is ; and have the ability to change out the Jib
with the one on a 16 as well. On dead air days i'll practice changing out & reefing
my sails till i got it down to under 5min by myself.

I "Don't think it prudent for me to be out where i got a 5min warning bell, (looking at wind-lines on water) and
knowing that my 13mph wind is about to be 30mph, without being able
to reduce my sail aria down to 2/3'rds of the stock 300sq/ft the 21-SE has.

Anyone else have reefing points on your Main ; or does everyone sail in
more consistent winds than what i Get on Mohave ?

One benefit for me is
that i kinda Know the moods of this place because i kite-boarded it for a while now.

Bille

What's the sail out front called ?
[Linked Image]

-- Have You Seen This? --
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247828
05/06/12 06:14 AM
05/06/12 06:14 AM
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 773
Greenville SC
bacho Offline
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bacho  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 773
Greenville SC
That would be a spinnaker

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247861
05/06/12 11:33 AM
05/06/12 11:33 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline OP
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Originally Posted by bacho
That would be a spinnaker


HA !! Wouldn't have guessed That ; It looked a 150% Drifter
to me.

Would you happen to Know about how many gallons of water
the Mast Float will displace ?
I can't afford a new one so i'll need to build my own.
I Don't "Want" to flip my 21-SE but Do Want to be ready
if/when i do.

Making molds is Fun ; need to mold my center-board because
one is Good and one is Toast.
Same with my Rudders ; one Good , one Bad . I'll have
TWO Carbon ones for, (cheaper than one new) ; once the mold is made. Can
paint the mold with a surface coat on the part that is a LOT
lighter than Polyester-gel-coat ! Too bad because i Like
that black carbon look but can't use it at Mohave where the temperature in the shade is 113F


Bille

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247866
05/06/12 02:18 PM
05/06/12 02:18 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
That mast float may not be 'big enough' if it's the standard Hobie Wave or Getaway float. The H21 mast (and everything else) is a lot heavier, with more leverage and will probably just push that small float right under. And a bigger float will add a lot of drag way up high, where you least want it, when you're right side up.

You might consider putting some type of water activated inflatable CO2 cartridge type float up there, that way it's not much drag when you are sailing, and it only 'blows up' when you need it, ie. when you flip. Sort of like those new inflatable life preservers being worn by offshore racing crews, just wrap it around the top of the mast or attach with bungies, etc.

On the big sail, on spinnaker cats, the spin. acts a lot like a "Drifter" on a monohull, it's the same thing with a different name. Cats don't use a symetrical spin with a pole on the mast like mono's do, our spins. are more like a huge jib, you can even go upwind in light air with a flat one, just like a Drifter on a mono.

The early spins on the H21's were very fat, cut for going deep downwind. The newer spins on the closed course racing cats (Inter 20's, F18's, F16's, etc.) are much flatter cut, but they also snuff into a sock on the pole, but the older H21 spins went into a bag on the tramp. That's 'crew work'!

If you are going to singlehand it most of the time, you'll want to get a sock on the pole, it's much easier to get it down and snuffed that way, when you are alone. OR...get one of Rick White's "Hooters", which is basically a roller furling spinnaker/large jib setup.

Either way, you'll have to get a spinnaker custom made, as the old H21's are not being produced anymore, neither are the sails. The spinnakers were add-on's for distance racing back in the day. Randy Smyth made a bunch of them, see if he's got any laying around you might be able to get one cheap.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247870
05/06/12 03:55 PM
05/06/12 03:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline OP
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Bille  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by Timbo

...

You might consider putting some type of water activated inflatable CO2 cartridge type float up there, that way it's not much drag when you are sailing,
...

... The spinnakers were add-on's for distance racing back in the day. Randy Smyth made a bunch of them, see if he's got any laying around you might be able to get one cheap.


Great idea on the Mast float ; I can do that !!!
a mercury contact switch made from a Long glass tube
with contacts ON Top. When it tips over, the liquid metal
will short the contacts & blow the CO2 bottle.

Edit :
UAH -- gonna need a way to dis-arm that thing, or
lowering the Mast might be a problem !!

SO i weigh the mast and figure the Volume i'll need
with 1 hull a few feet from the fulcrum point ? ...

Guss Ya figured i know a bit about Mono's ; but don't
Know Squat about Cats ??

Got a contact # for Randy Smyth ?

Yes i'll be solo a Lot, & the wind blows at Mohave
in the afternoon when Kite boarding is finished, because it
turned off-shore for us.
A :
Perfect time to go sail.

Thanks :
Bille

Last edited by Bille; 05/06/12 06:29 PM.
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247879
05/06/12 10:57 PM
05/06/12 10:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Timbo  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
I found this article about Randy but no luck on his contact info using Google. Perhaps someone on this board can help you track him down.

http://www.sailingworld.com/article/Randy-Smyth


Blade F16
#777
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247890
05/07/12 07:55 AM
05/07/12 07:55 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
P.M. Offline
Pooh-Bah
P.M.  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,490
On the Water
You might want to try google Smyth Sails and you'll get his cell.
Oh My!


Philip
USA #1006
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: P.M.] #247893
05/07/12 08:06 AM
05/07/12 08:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
RickWhite Offline

Carpal Tunnel
RickWhite  Offline

Carpal Tunnel
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 3,355
Key Largo, FL and Put-in-Bay, ...
There are several sizes of Bobs.., Baby is what the Waves use, and the biggest is the Mama Bob
We have them here on our store at
www.OnLineMarineStore.com
Rick


Rick White
Catsailor Magazine & OnLineMarineStore.com
www.onlinemarinestore.com
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247915
05/07/12 04:58 PM
05/07/12 04:58 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 699
SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
HMurphey Offline
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SE Pa. or Chesapeak Bay
Billie,

Before you get involved in making at "bob" .... most of the racers at the time rigged a righting pole attached to the dolphin striker/under the tramp ... (my friend used a H16 boom) ... that swung out to right the boat ... the crew hangs/pulls down on it ... and swings back and stores under the tramp when tied to the lacings once the boat is righted .... (I believe Rick's store has a kit availible ...)

As for sails ... the H21SE was a "Open" sailplan ... meaning you could source/purchase sails from any sailmaker you wish ... they just had to "measure" .... Doyle at the time (88'-90') made a mainsail w/ alot of "roach" to it and combined w/ windward sheeting (which is also allowed ...) ... that +600lb boat would move surprisingly well in light air ... (I watched the "Jacobson" brothers win the New England 100 one year in a drifter w/ that mainsail ... on Fisher's Island Sound ...). So w/ the developement of the "Squaretop" mainsail since then ... I would do some research ... (talk to "Team Chums" ... I think he had a beautiful H-21SE at one time ...)

Most of the H21SE's had a "Jib Furler" .... when new ...

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247919
05/07/12 09:17 PM
05/07/12 09:17 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
B
Bille Offline OP
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Bille  Offline OP
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I appreciate everyone input.

I decided to build my own mast float the same diameter as Mama Bob
but a bit longer than her 22" length.
Mama weighs 5.8lb and is 18" diameter ; i can match the weight and make
it closer to 32" in length, which will reduce the drag a Lot, if it swivels. That also adds
a Bunch more buoyancy;like 30% more.

I'm not gonna be touching it at the top of my Mast; so
it can have that Black-Carbon Twill & clear-coat Look.
My materials can take the heat.
Bille

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Timbo] #247920
05/07/12 09:25 PM
05/07/12 09:25 PM
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 232
JJ_ Offline
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JJ_  Offline
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Quote
You might consider putting some type of water activated inflatable CO2 cartridge type float up there, that way it's not much drag when you are sailing, and it only 'blows up' when you need it, ie. when you flip.


What? Rick sell them?

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: HMurphey] #247938
05/08/12 10:12 AM
05/08/12 10:12 AM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline OP
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Bille  Offline OP
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Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
Originally Posted by HMurphey
Billie,

Before you get involved in making at "bob" .... most of the racers at the time rigged a righting pole attached to the dolphin striker/under the tramp ... (my friend used a H16 boom)
...

Most of the H21SE's had a "Jib Furler" .... when new ...

Harry Murphey
H18Mag/P19MX


I originally learned to sail at Pax-River navel air station
when i was 15. That was back in 1967,(ouch i'm getting Old)!

The Mono-hull was about 35 to 40ft long and Yawl-rigged
with the mizzen-staysail Behind the Helm.
The Main had off-set positions, set with the side stays
so that the Mast could be tilted toward the windward side
of the boat,thus catching more air in the sails as
she heeled over.

Fast Forward to present :

My friend use to race Hobie 18 and told me how to
right my 21 with ease.

Place a mast bob so it doesn't go turtle.
Place off-set's on the side-stays so the mast-Bob
can be pulled OVER the hull in the water, or the
Mast Bob is now touching a projected line of where
beam of the cat would be if floating correct and upright.
((the Mast would be tilted))

The cat will go correct with little weight extended !

So -- guess what i'm doing to the side-stays on my
Hobie 21SE ? Mostly because i wouldn't be able to right
this cat by myself if/when i flip her.

Bille

I will address the "Jib Furler" later !

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247942
05/08/12 11:49 AM
05/08/12 11:49 AM
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
S
srm Offline
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srm  Offline
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 330
Originally Posted by Bille
My friend use to race Hobie 18 and told me how to
right my 21 with ease.....


All great in theory, but I highly recommend you try this out in a safe, controlled environment, before you accept it as truth. Even then, it's still not a guarantee. Lots of righting methods seem like a good idea on paper, but don't work for squat in practice. A Hobie 21 is a heck of a lot of boat for one person to try to pull over themself, even with the use of shroud extenders (which have their own set of issues as well).

The 21 was never intended to be a singlehander (by a longshot). It was originally intended as a 2 or 3 person boat. About the only guaranteed righting method is to add more crew weight (although even that will fail if your mast fills with water).

sm

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247943
05/08/12 12:14 PM
05/08/12 12:14 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,035
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Timbo  Offline
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Sebring, Florida.
Bille, check out the "Righting Bags" too.

Basically it's a large canvas/rubber/plastic type sack you fill up with water and put over your shoulder to add to your weight, for righting the boat. It rides on the tramp empty of course, until you need it.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #247955
05/08/12 02:14 PM
05/08/12 02:14 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
I had a "moma bob" that I'd use on Catalina trips. Painted it black though so it wasn't so noticeable. E/P made my spinn. It was small by 21se standards but worked great (300 sq. ft.) It was N20 profile. I'd just go with a N20 chute and be done with it. I ran a (short) 13.5' pole with mid pole snuffer. Spin sheet blocks were in the same tracks as the jib traveler cars but forward of them. I'm dissapointed you cut the rear beam but you could have a good welder drill some 1" holes just to the insert and plug weld them. I welded my beams so the boat was full width all the time. The stiffer platform sailed better. Trailering wasn't bad, just go through the far right lane when crossing the border into or coming from Mexico (it's for truckers). DON'T MAKE A HARD DECK TRAMPOLINE!! They didn't put Man O War in with the Budwiser Clydsdales.


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: TeamChums] #247956
05/08/12 02:16 PM
05/08/12 02:16 PM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
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TeamChums  Offline
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Posts: 1,301
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Also, get Tiger rudders. They are long enough. Don't waste your time making your own.


Lee

Sail fast or get the hell out of the way.
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: srm] #247980
05/08/12 08:55 PM
05/08/12 08:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 190
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Bille Offline OP
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Bille  Offline OP
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Originally Posted by srm

...
All great in theory, but I highly recommend you try this out in a safe, controlled environment, before you accept it as truth. Even then, it's still not a guarantee.
...

The 21 was never intended to be a singlehander (by a longshot). ...
sm


That's a Great idea !!
I can tie a 100ft cord to the mast where the stays attach
and flip it with my car in dead air with no sails.

That Should be easier than with sails up, for the second try in wind.
If i can also video & post it here then maybe you guys see if it looks feasible or not ?

I lost both legs because i Didn't leave a way out on a
hang glider. I won't fear flipping over as much on a
fun day, if i know it'll go back right-side Up !
That's gonna be a Practiced plan!!

[img]http://www.kiteforum.com/download/file.php?id=47756[/img]

Originally Posted by TeamChums
... I'm dissapointed you cut the rear beam but you could have a good welder ...

... DON'T MAKE A HARD DECK TRAMPOLINE!! ...


I didn't enjoy cutting the rear X-beam ; & i'm trying
to NOT let it bother me that the reason it was stuck
in the First place :
was because someone screwed in some SS flat-head screwes
on the spacers in-between the tubes, and didn't bother with the "locktite".
One backed out.
Now the rear cross-beam is permanently stuck in the receiver.
Unless i got a New Cross-Beam. then i (Could) use a Sawz-All to cut that section out of the outer receiver tube, And Not damage the outer Tube. The spacers are Toast, if i do that.
Cheaper to just splice the Beam back together.

Also -- the material i plan to use making my tramps, was
mentioned in the first post of this thread. I'll use
the same material for the wings.

Bille

Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: TeamChums] #271004
04/01/14 05:51 PM
04/01/14 05:51 PM
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2
Capt.Andy Offline
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Capt.Andy  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 2
TeamChums - in reading through many posts - you seem to have excellent working knowledge of the 21se... What would you recommend as the best available rudder for the 21se if you're going to fly a chute?

Last edited by Capt.Andy; 04/01/14 05:53 PM.

Andy Gardner
Hobie 21SE "Lickity Split"
Cowan Lake Sailing Association
Foster, OH
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #271013
04/01/14 09:59 PM
04/01/14 09:59 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,430
california
F-18 5150 Offline
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F-18 5150  Offline
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Posts: 1,430
california
That looks like the boat from Eureka. Great boat if it is.


Richard Vilvens
Brand Ambassador
PSA Capricorn USA
R.Vilvens@yahoo.com
Fairfield, Ca
F-18 5150

http://www.capricornsailing.com/
Re: Hobie 21-SE & Me [Re: Bille] #271015
04/02/14 03:51 AM
04/02/14 03:51 AM
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Pirate Offline
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Pirate  Offline
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Posts: 858
Victoria Australia
Originally Posted by Bille
..... Would you happen to Know about how many gallons of water
the Mast Float will displace ?
I can't afford a new one so i'll need to build my own.
I Don't "Want" to flip my 21-SE but Do Want to be ready
if/when i do......


I've filled masts with "bean-bag" styrene foam balls wink

Not for floatation as such, but to displace the water when its goes over, lots less worry than how good is the mast sealed up !!!


Another one I saw many years ago was a bag made from sailcloth that was velcro'd to the top of the mast and had a short rope that was shackled to the very top of the mast, the bag lay reasonably flat against the mast for normal duties.
A soda-stream CO2 cylinder was setup at the mast step in an over-centre catch system, simply lift the lever and the bottle was forced up into a bursting chamber that had a small plastic hose that then ran up to the bag...
When inflated the bag was about 1' in diameter and 3' in length...

this setup was on a yvonne 20' timber catamaran back in the early 80's, as a teenager I remember seeing the mast near jump out of the water when it was deployed, you wouldn't want to be in the wrong place !!!
shocked



Yvonne data sheet




Yar, & this ere post be done without a sin'le drop o' rum passin' me lips

Kingy
started with Impara Cadet #3 / Mosquito #245
& now Mosquitos #1182 & #1740

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