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Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258102
03/05/13 01:43 PM
03/05/13 01:43 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Where's that listed?


Blade F16
#777
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Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258107
03/05/13 02:17 PM
03/05/13 02:17 PM
Joined: May 2003
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West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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West coast of Norway
The women have horses for toys, and the moneymaker can not have expensive toys? Well.. I am divorced.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258108
03/05/13 02:21 PM
03/05/13 02:21 PM
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Posts: 6,037
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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After the feed bills, board bills and Vet bills, there's no money left for food, let alone toys! I'm lucky if I can get a sixpack of Sierra Nevada Torpedos on sale some days.

I'm going out to ride my bike, if I'm lucky I'll be run over by a truck, I just hope it's quick.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #258109
03/05/13 02:23 PM
03/05/13 02:23 PM
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 4,451
West coast of Norway
Rolf_Nilsen Offline

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Aim for the big ones.. Or start building an A-cat, that should free up your budget double quick wink

Re: Rules [Re: Rolf_Nilsen] #258329
03/15/13 02:44 AM
03/15/13 02:44 AM
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 1,632
Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
stillbitten Offline
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Gippsland Lakes Victoria Aust...
Hope you don't mind a has been chiming in, but I couldn't help but point out to Greg Goodall recently that he was one of the ones that wanted the rules tightened up for F16 to stop foiling centreboards (original rules had nothing to stop them) and a foiling centreboard cat was what stopped his drive for Olympic selection of the Viper. Just a bit of irony in that.

I have had a play on a foiling Moth and it is awesome, getting the right sort of foils on a cat has to be the answer, not like the A's which are trying to work within their rules.


Regards Gary.
Mosquito 1830
All opions expressed in this post are mine and mine alone, no assumptions should be made regarding any Associations or Clubs I may be a member of.
Re: Rules [Re: stillbitten] #260047
06/06/13 02:55 AM
06/06/13 02:55 AM
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Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Reading back through this Thrice might have a point. I feel in light of whats going on in the catamaran world at the moment, relaxing the centreboard rules might be a good idea. Its still going to take a while for any interested party to get the motivation to get it right so i dont think its going to make the rest of the fleet obsolete over night.

Over the past couple of years the box seems to be getting tighter and tighter. Instead of putting more rules in i reckon it would be a good idea for the future of the F16 to see a few outdated rules removed or relaxed a bit. Or better still i feel we should be going back to the original rule set before ISAF became involved.

I see now there is a push at the moment to tighten the sail rules even more. It means all of the sails start looking the same and keeps the construction stuck firmly in the stone age. New construction techniques we were using nearly a decade ago are now not class legal. Seems there is a bit of a push from i dont know who to try and make every boat in the world close to one-design. This makes absolutely no sense IMO as most classes in the cat world that are doing well are Box rule or at very least have multiple builders.



Last edited by Aido; 06/06/13 02:59 AM.

Aido
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Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260050
06/06/13 07:20 AM
06/06/13 07:20 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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Hans resigned because one the French officials was trying to change rules unilaterally, iirc.

Do we have an international class president at the moment?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260087
06/06/13 04:01 PM
06/06/13 04:01 PM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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We have to decide what we want the class to be about.

Should it be a "Development Class" like the A cats?

Or should it be about keeping the rules tight, so the boats are more equal, putting more emphasis on the skipper and crew to win races, vs. some new dagger board, sail or what have you.

Development costs money, and takes time.

The two things I'm always short of are time and money.

If we go the development route, curved boards, foiling, etc. I'll be out, might go to a Hobie 16 or a Corsair, something where I don't have to spend additional time and money on every new idea that comes along. If I wanted to do that, I'd be on an A Cat.


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260088
06/06/13 04:26 PM
06/06/13 04:26 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
I agree Timbo. The centre board thing is just an example, but its something to think about, and sails don't cost that much. I'm in a situation now were sails I built 4 and 2 years ago and were fine then, are now not class legal. I don't remember voting on that. Did any of you guys?

I came from the Hobie 16 so I can appreciate the value of one design. However the f16 box rules have been tightened significantly while both you and I have been in the class and we have had no say about it. It's not right IMO.

Not sure about class president, the french seem to be acting on their own from what I can work out.

Last edited by Aido; 06/06/13 04:29 PM.

Aido
Viper 288
Re: Rules [Re: Aido] #260104
06/07/13 07:16 AM
06/07/13 07:16 AM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 141
M
mini Offline
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M
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When you start talking about curved boards and foiling then you get the possibility of some serious expense. Most of the other items that are being proposed are self governing. For example, the head size on the sails. If you have a pin head sail and move to a square top it has proven faster over most conditions. The A class has no restrictions on mast height, head size etc. They experimented with heads that got huge and found there was a definite limit. For a very short time you found a few teams running many different configurations. Go to an A class event now and all the masts are virtually the same height and the heads on the sails fall into a very narrow range of widths. There is an attraction to some to be able to change small things and we all learn as a result.

As far as your sails go Aido, who told you they were illegal? There are only a few restrictions on what you can do and these have not changed since the first version of the rules in 04 as far as I know and definitely, in 10 when the Isaf version was written there are no changes that can be made to rules for a period of 5 years. There never have been any material restrictions in the F16 class.

I heard rumor that this was the reason the Chairman resigned the class, because of things being done without approval


Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260111
06/07/13 08:53 AM
06/07/13 08:53 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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If things are being done, without approval....

why are they being allowed to race as F16's? Do rules mean nothing?

I think I'll skip the offset mark next time, see how that works out, I know it'll be faster!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260113
06/07/13 09:20 AM
06/07/13 09:20 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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There is quite an in depth discussion of curved boards on SA, with some knowledgable contributors.

My take away is that curved boards are not inherently superior but they are more suited to some applications. It does seem the A class is finding curved boards and rudder winglets are a performance enhancer. Krantz made an interesting post describing how he souped up an older boat.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: Timbo] #260114
06/07/13 09:38 AM
06/07/13 09:38 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,246
Orlando, FL
tback Offline
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Originally Posted by Timbo
If things are being done, without approval....

why are they being allowed to race as F16's? Do rules mean nothing?

I think I'll skip the offset mark next time, see how that works out, I know it'll be faster!


Because we've all become to "nice" about not protesting or calling someone out .... if we don't self police ourselves then the rules really don't matter.

I think too many of us (myself included) that are older don't really want to protest and find ourselves in "the room" because it interferes with our social libations after the racing. With the attraction of the youth sailors, I think we owe it to them to mind the rules or 2 things happen that aren't good for our sport

1) they learn that you don't have to obey the rules
2) they get frustrated that everyone is not minding the rules and they stop participating

I decided (after sailing with Ding eek ) that I'm calling you out if you foul me.

Case in point, at recent regatta a boat (F16) fouled me (I had witnesses). I yelled "foul", give me turns, everything .... BUT ... PROTEST. I was going to take them to "the room" but several people said I'd lose because I didn't say the magic word "PROTEST".

Because of this, Sophie (a youth sailor) missed winning the regatta.

So minding the rules matter .... and it's safer for our sport ... ask Seth and Stefan!


USA 777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260115
06/07/13 09:44 AM
06/07/13 09:44 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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THAT'S why we need these discussions.


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: Timbo] #260121
06/07/13 10:27 AM
06/07/13 10:27 AM
Joined: Dec 2001
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Naples, FL
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Originally Posted by Timbo

Development costs money, and takes time.

The two things I'm always short of are time and money.



So what's more important to you Timbo? Racing to win, racing to improve your individual ability, or sailing as a social event?

I think the answer would dictate how you spend the limited time/money you have at your disposal.

Racing has certainly improved my boat-handling ability, as well as my competency in higher wind/sea conditions which could translate quite well into less high-performance craft.

Since I'm too fat (180 lbs and falling) for you twerps on tiny boats, I have resigned myself to adopting more of a cruising lifestyle in the hopes of picking up a F-24 which would be about as "dual purpose" (moderately fast, trailerable, single-handable, and weekend cruise-able) as I could hope to afford.


Last edited by waterbug_wpb; 06/07/13 10:29 AM.

Jay

Re: Rules [Re: tback] #260132
06/07/13 02:56 PM
06/07/13 02:56 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 3,906
Clermont, FL, USA
David Ingram Offline
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Originally Posted by tback

I decided (after sailing with Ding eek ) that I'm calling you out if you foul me.



That hurts my heart a little bit Terry, oh who am I kidding... I couldn't even keep a straight face typing that. That's right, if one of you b!tches steps out of line we will be spending some quality time in the room together.


David Ingram
F18 USA 242
http://www.solarwind.solar

"Do or do not. There is no try." - Yoda
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"You don't have to be a brain surgeon to be a complete idiot, but it helps"
Re: Rules [Re: waterbug_wpb] #260153
06/08/13 09:29 AM
06/08/13 09:29 AM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 6,037
Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Originally Posted by waterbug_wpb
Originally Posted by Timbo

Development costs money, and takes time.

The two things I'm always short of are time and money.



So what's more important to you Timbo? Racing to win, racing to improve your individual ability, or sailing as a social event?

I think the answer would dictate how you spend the limited time/money you have at your disposal.

Racing has certainly improved my boat-handling ability, as well as my competency in higher wind/sea conditions which could translate quite well into less high-performance craft.

Since I'm too fat (180 lbs and falling) for you twerps on tiny boats, I have resigned myself to adopting more of a cruising lifestyle in the hopes of picking up a F-24 which would be about as "dual purpose" (moderately fast, trailerable, single-handable, and weekend cruise-able) as I could hope to afford.



When I first got into racing, at 19, it was to improve my sailing skills. Later, in my mid 20's, it was for the adrenaline rush of tight competition. Now in my 50's, I only do it for the social event afterwards, if/when I have the time and money to show up.

And I'm 185 on a light day, in the spring, after a 20 mile bike ride, but well over 190 during NFL season (beer, pizza induced) so you are lighter than me and a perfect weight for Uni or with one of the kiddes! BUT the two of us together, not even on an F18. Too bad nobody can afford to race an Inter 20 anymore!


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260154
06/08/13 09:32 AM
06/08/13 09:32 AM
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Sebring, Florida.
Timbo Offline
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Any of you Boston Boys see that Bruins game last night?


Blade F16
#777
Re: Rules [Re: pgp] #260187
06/10/13 09:31 AM
06/10/13 09:31 AM
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pgp Offline OP
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I believe the rules allow a board to be canted up to 6 degrees. Anyone know why? Is an increase called for? Would it do any good?


Pete Pollard
Blade 702

'When you have a lot of things to do, it's best to get your nap out of the way first.

Re: Rules [Re: mini] #260230
06/11/13 02:30 AM
06/11/13 02:30 AM
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Posts: 242
Brisveagas
Aido Offline
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Brisveagas
They aren't illegal cause they were made before they changed the rules.

The way i read it is the "one cloth throughout the body of the sail" stuff excluded a lot of construction techniques. I'd like to see you argue that a 3di sail was the same cloth throughout. Anyway guess ill just have to use the rules as they are, as its too late to complain now. Just dont want that sort of thing to happen regularly.

I wonder how much lift you could get out of 6 degrees of cant on your centre boards?


Aido
Viper 288
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