| Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#262417 08/14/13 09:23 AM 08/14/13 09:23 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
Carpal Tunnel
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Carpal Tunnel
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | To deal with the handle chafing the line at the thimble, I push a short cut line through the trap line (including the eye-splice tail, bend it back, and whip the line like mad. Then I put a piece of shrink wrap over it so the handle jams on the line and doesn't reach the thimble. I do like the idea of these blocks in this application because chafe at the sheave can be a real problem with the take-up tail.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Jake]
#262418 08/14/13 09:29 AM 08/14/13 09:29 AM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | I've taken that dogbone to the teeth a few times, which is why I prefer that wire loop with the plastic insert. Even when the insert/spacer fails, the wire loop remains viable.
But your setup still looks sweet. What size is that trap line to the mast?
Jay
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#262419 08/14/13 10:32 AM 08/14/13 10:32 AM | MN3
Unregistered
| MN3
Unregistered | yup , everything is a trade off. I have had them fail. I prefer the ability to pull myself up and away from a swell in the gulf .... Adjustable traps seem to be too much to screw with to me. I just use the standard dog bone. If I want to trap low, I use the low hole. I want to be higher, I use the high hole. Plus, the more parts you introduce to a system, doesn't matter what it is, the more parts there is to fail. You could probably do away with the block too. Just use a sailmaker's thimble there. Other parts of that part of the trapeze will probably wear out before the wear from the thimble becomes an issue. This is all I use, clean and simple: I don't shackle the block on any longer, I just use a Harken 504 (I think that's the number) and put it through the thimble when I make my trap lines. I used to always make them from the top down. I'd make the splice that attaches to the mast first, then set my handles and do the eye at the bottom. Where the handle meets the thimble it creates a wear spot and I think the solution to that is to just tie a stopper knot, (probably just an overhand knot would be sufficient), in the dyneema for the handle to stop against and have the thimble with the block an inch or two below that knot. Should be wicked durable that way. | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#262420 08/14/13 10:34 AM 08/14/13 10:34 AM | MN3
Unregistered
| MN3
Unregistered | I don't use those "can't miss trapeze handles" anymore ... I had the wire rust away (where it wasn't visible) and dump me I've taken that dogbone to the teeth a few times, which is why I prefer that wire loop with the plastic insert. Even when the insert/spacer fails, the wire loop remains viable.
But your setup still looks sweet. What size is that trap line to the mast? | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: samc99us]
#262421 08/14/13 11:19 AM 08/14/13 11:19 AM |
Joined: Jun 2002 Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... catman
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Pooh-Bah
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Posts: 1,658 Florida Suncoast, Dunedin Caus... | Jeff,
Maybe you've been following my thread on that other beachcat site. I had the same idea, and ordered the parts. The official Nacra and C2 double blocks used in the adjustable setup are ~$55 EACH. The ronstan double block is a ~$25 part. There is a knock off of the Ronstan/Harken part but I don't trust knock off's in a safety critical application, when the name brand guys see failure.
So I went with the shock blocks at $16 a pair from a local supplier (sorry Rick I might return these don't want to double pay shipping). My intention is to splice them together to form a double block using dyneema. To be fair to Ronstan I don't think this is the intended purpose but others have done it with Antal rings. My concerns are the following:
1) MWL; in a 2:1 setup I'm 185lbs wet so you're looking at 370#'s of load on the block. Other have pointed out you may see 2-3g's of acceleration occasionally so you may apply up to 3x that number, 1110 lbs. That exceeds the breaking load of the shock block. However, it's an aluminum block so it won't just snap. It'll likely deform and since you are only applying high loads for temporary periods of time. Finally, one must remember Ronstan designed these for similar applications/load cases on kite boards.
2) Friction. I went with 3/16" (5mm) diameter line which is commonly used in adjustable trap setups. Somewhere I saw (Murrays?) the shock block ideal line diameter tops out at 1/8". Now that I've seen that I'm going to go down to 4mm (another reason to shop locally) line, which actually increases my line cost. Previously I spec'd Excel Pro which has a 1511$# tensile strength in 3/16" diameter, but a mere 695# tensile strength in the 5/32" diameter (4mm). Hence I'll switch to a dyneema cored line, FSE Dinghy Control Line which is a nice running line and has decent price/performance ratio. In 4mm this has a tensile strength of 1574#'s. I want the blocks to explode before the line does.
I'll post photos and reviews of the system when I'm done. I'm doing this right but trying to save money where it makes sense. Also want a reliable system for ocean racing so if the shock blocks don't work they'll get returned. I'm looking at the Ronstan linked blocks #RF20284. Working load 550lbs. BL 1210 lbs. These 20mm blocks come regular and high load.
Have Fun
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#262422 08/14/13 02:35 PM 08/14/13 02:35 PM |
Joined: Feb 2005 Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn Karl_Brogger
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Posts: 4,118 Northfield Mn | What size is that trap line to the mast? 3mm. I think I'd like to go smaller, but I use that same size all over the boat and I usually buy it by the spool. A spool of 2mm would last me a lifetime just using it on trapeze parts.
I'm boatless.
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Karl_Brogger]
#262423 08/14/13 02:43 PM 08/14/13 02:43 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | What size is that trap line to the mast? 3mm. I think I'd like to go smaller, but I use that same size all over the boat and I usually buy it by the spool. A spool of 2mm would last me a lifetime just using it on trapeze parts. The 2.5mm (7/64") Amsteel is fine for trap lines. Just be ready for it to have some initial stretch. My a-cat lines stretched about 4-6" before taking a final set.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Jake]
#262424 08/14/13 02:57 PM 08/14/13 02:57 PM |
Joined: Mar 2006 Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL tback
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Posts: 1,246 Orlando, FL | The 2.5mm (7/64") Amsteel is fine for trap lines. Just be ready for it to have some initial stretch. My a-cat lines stretched about 4-6" before taking a final set.
Jake how many sails and how many times did you adjust before it locked into a range +/1 1/8 of stretch (ie Final stretch point)
USA 777
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: tback]
#262425 08/14/13 03:14 PM 08/14/13 03:14 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | The 2.5mm (7/64") Amsteel is fine for trap lines. Just be ready for it to have some initial stretch. My a-cat lines stretched about 4-6" before taking a final set.
Jake how many sails and how many times did you adjust before it locked into a range +/1 1/8 of stretch (ie Final stretch point) It didn't take long. It was done stretching mostly after the first day. It was a good day with 12+ winds so I was on the wire most of the day. That evening I remember looking at it thinking "crap, that stretched a lot" and I had to resplice it.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: Jake]
#262429 08/14/13 03:58 PM 08/14/13 03:58 PM |
Joined: Dec 2001 Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL waterbug_wpb
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Posts: 5,590 Naples, FL | how hard was it to re-splice once you tensioned the line?
Jay
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: RickWhite]
#262430 08/14/13 04:31 PM 08/14/13 04:31 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | Karl, Why not just get rid of the small microblock (H224) below the handle and just run the line through the thimble. I do this and it works flawlessly. Clean and simple.
What is everybody else doing up top to prevent chafe, or are you just leaving it bare? You guys using 4 seperate pieces or 2 pieces doubled/Brummel on double hand boats?
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: P.M.]
#262433 08/14/13 04:46 PM 08/14/13 04:46 PM | Scarecrow
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Unregistered | Karl, Why not just get rid of the small microblock (H224) below the handle and just run the line through the thimble. I do this and it works flawlessly. Clean and simple.
This is what I do too an its where I'm adding Antel thimbles on the new set to cut down a little on friction compared to the normal rigging thimbles. What is everybody else doing up top to prevent chafe, or are you just leaving it bare?
On my current wires I have 6 inches or so of lacing at the top which gaves me the ability to adjust the length (To allow for creep in the inital setup) and also provide this chafe guard. What a lot of people do is just thread the lines through 6 inches of normal sheaving that has been stripped from easewhere on the boat, other use some rubber hose. With regards to minimising creep, leaving the line you have purchased in one long length do a splice at each end that will become the top end of the lines. but before you do so put an old block in the middle of line. Now tie the two spliced ends to a tree or post and connect your mainsheet block to the block you have floating in the middle and pull the whole thing towards another tree or post. Go back every half hour and make it a bit tighter. Once you're happy it is not getting any longer or the tree falls down cut it in the middle and splice on the other end. Assume you'll get another inch of creep in the final splice. | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: RickWhite]
#262434 08/14/13 04:48 PM 08/14/13 04:48 PM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | First, Jake thanks for the amsteel stretch notes I'll re-splice to accommodate. If you leave the bottom splice adjustable you can account for this in time
Karl, the dog bone works well and I think is a great option for skippers primarily buoy racing and single-handers. For a distance racing setup I like the adjustable setups. Gets my butt out of the waves, and lets me trap lower than a dog bone setup ordinarily allows as crew. Less critical for the helmsman but the crew ends up on that wire too.
I went with 4 separate lines. More difficult to manage for rigging but the splicing was easier. We have no covers at the top for chafe but am curious what others are doing. I might slip some on since I grabbed a bunch of scrap the other day.
Scorpion F18
| | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: ]
#262435 08/14/13 05:02 PM 08/14/13 05:02 PM |
Joined: Dec 2006 Posts: 2,490 On the Water P.M.
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Posts: 2,490 On the Water | I have 6 inches or so of lacing at the top Please elaborate, not sure what you mean here. Lacing?
Philip USA #1006 | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: RickWhite]
#262437 08/14/13 06:21 PM 08/14/13 06:21 PM | Scarecrow
Unregistered
| Scarecrow
Unregistered | My "wires" are deliberately 6" to short then I lash it to the shackle on the mast with some 2mm chord. Sorry boat lives at the club and I don't have any photos. | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: waterbug_wpb]
#262441 08/14/13 06:42 PM 08/14/13 06:42 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | how hard was it to re-splice once you tensioned the line? Not hard at all. Amsteel is pretty easy to work with even after it's been stressed.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: samc99us]
#262442 08/14/13 06:44 PM 08/14/13 06:44 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | I cover the line with cover I strip from some Excel Racing Pro where it could chafe. It gets covered in the eye splice (at the hound) and down the mast a little where it could rub/catch the rigging.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Interesting New Sheaveless Block
[Re: RickWhite]
#262454 08/15/13 07:23 AM 08/15/13 07:23 AM |
Joined: Mar 2009 Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD samc99us
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Posts: 932 Solomon's Island, MD | I suggest using Rick's block posted above or the equivalent Harken. The Ronstan shock blocks are too small for this application, they are tiny! I went with a single Antal ferrul instead; 2 spliced together would be perfect but there isn't much room to splice.
The shock blocks look perfect for replacing small blocks that lead shockchord around the boat!
Scorpion F18
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