Announcements
New Discussions
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Hop To
Page 2 of 2 1 2
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: pitchpoledave] #265490
09/30/13 02:08 PM
09/30/13 02:08 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
looks like it has a belt (screecher) and suspenders (spinnaker) smile

Why do the boards flair outward at the top?


Jay

--Advertisement--
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #265497
09/30/13 04:15 PM
09/30/13 04:15 PM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
boards flare outward at the top so that upwind the board is vertical if all the way down.

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: pitchpoledave] #265552
10/01/13 07:14 PM
10/01/13 07:14 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
C
Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
journeyman
C

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
http://www.nacra.ca/f20cfoiling-3.jpg

Wow --Looks like they added about 20 to 24 inches of horizontal area to the curved boards and the T foil rudder is visable in the pic.

Wondering what locks the boards in the down position --amazingly strong boards -cases -etc able to carry all the loads .

Don't believe this version would be adjustable --that is able to adjust the foil board angle like A C cats .

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #265606
10/03/13 01:43 PM
10/03/13 01:43 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Trunks must be different than stock to handle the S board vs. C-board, so yes AoA etc. can be made an option.

As an upgrade kit this makes little sense with the Flying Phantom costing the same as a new Nacra F20c. Add a $5K+ foiling package to the F20c and its $5K more than a boat designed from the ground up to foil. Pegasus didn't have the Flying Phantom option when these were built, and I suspect picked up the F20c at a bargain basement price.


Scorpion F18
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: samc99us] #265631
10/04/13 03:34 PM
10/04/13 03:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Kennethsf Offline
member
Kennethsf  Offline
member

Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 133
The Netherlands
Originally Posted by samc99us
Trunks must be different than stock to handle the S board vs. C-board, so yes AoA etc. can be made an option.

As an upgrade kit this makes little sense with the Flying Phantom costing the same as a new Nacra F20c. Add a $5K+ foiling package to the F20c and its $5K more than a boat designed from the ground up to foil. Pegasus didn't have the Flying Phantom option when these were built, and I suspect picked up the F20c at a bargain basement price.


it's more the other way around, the Flying Phantom is a widened F18 [full displacement boat] while the F20C was designed with the curved foils to create semi foiling sailing as standard feature, so optimized to dip back en forth in the water

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #265632
10/04/13 03:51 PM
10/04/13 03:51 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
C
Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
journeyman
C

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
Has anyone developed an easy method of controling the foiling height ---that is --stabalizing the foiling above water level.

The cup cats used for and aft adjusters --moths use trim tabs .


The tendancy to "dip back en forth in the water" seems like the unwanted characteristic to correct or find a simple solution for .

Higher angles are needed to foil in light winds --once up foiling it seems a lesser angle relative to the hull is needed for optimum speed .

Last edited by Carl; 10/04/13 03:51 PM.
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Kennethsf] #265635
10/04/13 04:49 PM
10/04/13 04:49 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Originally Posted by Kennethsf
Originally Posted by samc99us
Trunks must be different than stock to handle the S board vs. C-board, so yes AoA etc. can be made an option.

As an upgrade kit this makes little sense with the Flying Phantom costing the same as a new Nacra F20c. Add a $5K+ foiling package to the F20c and its $5K more than a boat designed from the ground up to foil. Pegasus didn't have the Flying Phantom option when these were built, and I suspect picked up the F20c at a bargain basement price.


it's more the other way around, the Flying Phantom is a widened F18 [full displacement boat] while the F20C was designed with the curved foils to create semi foiling sailing as standard feature, so optimized to dip back en forth in the water


ETNZ did a lot of hull optimization; their initial hull shape, done without full-flying VPP analysis, was found perfectly optimized for full flying when they got the VPP working. This hull shape happens to mirror the Cirrus R pretty closely in rocker and volume. So, I would take the full flying Phantom over modifying a F20c. The F20c is designed to use the hull+foil to get into a semi-planning mode, so it is perhaps a little flatter further aft than ideal. Really the hull shape does not matter much, save enough bow volume to avoid a total wipeout and reducing drag when you're in displacement mode. Difference is the F20c doesn't come stock with board trunks that handle full flying.


Scorpion F18
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: samc99us] #265886
10/09/13 08:48 AM
10/09/13 08:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
TeamChums Offline
veteran
TeamChums  Offline
veteran

Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,304
Gulf Coast relocated from Cali...
Quote
Really the hull shape does not matter much,


Actually it does when you're trying to get the boat going fast enough to get it up on the foils.


Lee

Keyboard sailors are always faster in all conditions.
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #265964
10/10/13 09:26 AM
10/10/13 09:26 AM
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
pitchpoledave Offline
old hand
pitchpoledave  Offline
old hand

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 806
Toronto, Ontario
The f20c is a better platform to foil because it has a more powerful rig. Getting up on the foils takes power. Trunks can be changed out..and there are already a bunch out there..

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #266068
10/11/13 07:27 AM
10/11/13 07:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Yes, hulls matter when getting up, but again those shapes have already mostly been optimized with the fat sterns and modern rocker profiles.

The flying phantom has 10' carbon beams, >32' carbon rig and full carbon hulls, built by the #1 F18 builder for quality in the world. It is equally as powerful as the F20C and the build quality is likely better (read: stiffer=faster on foils). Again, I'd take the flying phantom over a full-foiling F20C in anything above about 8 kts of breeze.

Yes, the F20C is a good retrofitting platform, but again a lot of work and $10K to add foils to a boat that is just as expensive as the flying phantom to begin with. It doesn't make economic sense unless you find a F20C for less than $20K.

Last edited by samc99us; 10/11/13 07:28 AM.

Scorpion F18
Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #269536
02/19/14 01:07 PM
02/19/14 01:07 PM
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96
C
Carl Offline OP
journeyman
Carl  Offline OP
journeyman
C

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 96

Had some health issues --so --have been out of the loop for a while --just catching up .

Some thoughts on foil design and configurations.

,In other words -design idea B S ing ;]

Some class rules prohibit boards or foils outside hull beam ,as result boards and foils have been designed inward from the hulls --the c shapes S shapes L shapes of lifting foils are inward from hull beam .

In proposing a 20 class it might be advantagous to allow them outside hull beam .

In example -With canted hulls the foils could follow the hull line cant below the waterline and angle outward in a T shape--or -- Another very different option would be an inverted Pi symbol type configuration from the hull . Two smaller paralell boards with a base lifting foil in each hull .

Not sure if I,ll "built it " my thoughts currently are to build a 32 ft cruising cat --but what fun it would be as a foiler when the wind kicked in .

have fun .

Carl

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #269545
02/19/14 03:49 PM
02/19/14 03:49 PM
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
waterbug_wpb Offline
Carpal Tunnel
waterbug_wpb  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 5,590
Naples, FL
I'm sure foils extending past the max beam is more efficient, but dang that's got to be tricky at a crowded starting line or turn buoy.

Sort of like a bunch of H-18 with wing racks all going at it... except you can't see the foils nearly as well...


Jay

Re: Formula 20 foiling class ? [Re: Carl] #270476
03/20/14 06:59 PM
03/20/14 06:59 PM
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
S
samc99us Offline
old hand
samc99us  Offline
old hand
S

Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 932
Solomon's Island, MD
Brainstorming...slightly canted straight boards (~6°) with L's at the bottom...no curves. "Simple", easy to build, 3 part mold. Insert from bottom. Remove L-foils for beach races, insert regular straight boards from top.

Or build a set of c-boards and t-foil rudders for 98% lift and potentially less drag when it goes light.

Last edited by samc99us; 03/20/14 07:00 PM.

Scorpion F18
Page 2 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Damon Linkous 

Search

Who's Online Now
0 registered members (), 248 guests, and 79 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Darryl, zorro, CraigJ, PaulEddo2, AUS180
8150 Registered Users
Top Posters(30 Days)
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics22,404
Posts267,055
Members8,150
Most Online2,167
Dec 19th, 2022
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1