| Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: brucat]
#270901 03/31/14 10:26 AM 03/31/14 10:26 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Those rankings are goofy, has the fleet been split to gold and silver?
Good to see all three Sarah teams there!
Mike I heard that the Sarah Lihan that sails with Taylor Reiss was injured and headed home. It also looks like Sandra T. is heading over but she usually helms and that will imipact Taylor's ISAF ranking if he ends up crewing (all according to Jill's post on Robbie Daniel's Facebook).
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: catandahalf]
#271041 04/02/14 01:43 PM 04/02/14 01:43 PM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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Posts: 2,584 +31NL | | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: catandahalf]
#271055 04/02/14 03:51 PM 04/02/14 03:51 PM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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Posts: 2,584 +31NL | | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: Tony_F18]
#271068 04/02/14 10:59 PM 04/02/14 10:59 PM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Ya have to love the USACA helpful design hint.. "Tough conditions! Winglets would help. "
I still argue the boat is half done and ISAF should have had it fixed... When guys like BUNDY, pro of all pro's can't keep the pointy end up... something is wrong.
How windy does it look? Any idea what the readings were at the top mark?
Olympic buoy racing should not be a game of survivor.... it should be about boat speed and tactics with the luck factor minimized.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: catandahalf]
#271071 04/03/14 06:04 AM 04/03/14 06:04 AM |
Joined: Nov 2011 Posts: 554 Boston, Ma Jeff.Dusek
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Posts: 554 Boston, Ma | Watching the video above and a couple others from the bear away, I got the impression that the capsizes were mostly due to: 1. Being overly aggressive with skipper on the wire and entering the bear away with the hull flying. With only one hull in the water you lack buoyancy up front. Having the timing of the crew going forward to hoist wrong almost looked to contribute to some. 2. Some boats had to alter their bear away to avoid another capsized boat. Then, they are forced to try to bear away while down speed, which is very difficult.
If you watch the video, Billy Besson shows the way to do it. Skipper and crew on the deck, both hulls in, jib well eased, delay the hoist until you get the bows down. Maybe that is why he is the defending world champ and currently winning the event.
USF18 Eastern Area Rep Nacra Infusion USA 753
| | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#271073 04/03/14 07:05 AM 04/03/14 07:05 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | Ya have to love the USACA helpful design hint.. "Tough conditions! Winglets would help. "
I still argue the boat is half done and ISAF should have had it fixed... When guys like BUNDY, pro of all pro's can't keep the pointy end up... something is wrong.
How windy does it look? Any idea what the readings were at the top mark?
Olympic buoy racing should not be a game of survivor.... it should be about boat speed and tactics with the luck factor minimized. All of life is, technically, a game of survivor.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#271078 04/03/14 09:10 AM 04/03/14 09:10 AM |
Joined: Sep 2004 Posts: 2,584 +31NL Tony_F18
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Posts: 2,584 +31NL | Ya have to love the USACA helpful design hint.. "Tough conditions! Winglets would help. "
I still argue the boat is half done and ISAF should have had it fixed... When guys like BUNDY, pro of all pro's can't keep the pointy end up... something is wrong.
How windy does it look? Any idea what the readings were at the top mark?
Olympic buoy racing should not be a game of survivor.... it should be about boat speed and tactics with the luck factor minimized. Watch a replay of the last Tornado race of the Olympics in Qingdao, I recall multiple boats going over that day, 30 knots is just a lot of wind regardless of which cat you sail. | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: Tony_F18]
#271080 04/03/14 09:51 AM 04/03/14 09:51 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | That was 30K on the race course??? It sure does not look it.
And you make my argument with Quindago (sp) The medals were not determined by unlucky crash and burns caused by a not ready for prime time boat.
I get that ISAF and Nacra have a lot of capitol invested in the boat.... but just like the fable.... the emperor has no clothes...so FIX IT....... USACA told. em... put some rudder winglets on that boat.... Yesterday!
OR... you can say... well... Rio won't be windy in the summer... chances are the medals won't be impacted by bad luck preying on the boat's half baked design. It IS a plan.. YMMV as to the merits.
crac.sailregattas.com
| | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: catandahalf]
#271081 04/03/14 09:57 AM 04/03/14 09:57 AM |
Joined: Aug 2007 Posts: 3,969 brucat
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Posts: 3,969 | Mark, the best teams make their own luck. The boats have equal design, and the teams have to decide how much time, and in what conditions, to prepare. The best teams will figure out how to best sail the boat, as designed, not how they (or anyone else) wish it was designed.
So long as all of the boats are the same, it's a fair event.
Besides, part of the whole draw to have a cat in the Olympics, Americas Cup, and any of us racing them, is the NASCAR aspect: the boats are fast, and it could all go wrong at any given moment.
Mike | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: Mark Schneider]
#271082 04/03/14 10:05 AM 04/03/14 10:05 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 12,310 South Carolina Jake
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Posts: 12,310 South Carolina | What if the winglets lead to some other new problem! ?
Also consider that even if they were perfect right out of the box, they would certainly change the way the boat handles on all angles of sail. If I had been training and testing and working all of this time, I might be pretty upset at some new forced change to the boat that caused me to go back to square 1.
These guys and girls can get this boat to turn around A-mark just fine. They're all just pushing it at the limit of what it can handle and we're seeing those that are finding where that limit is. I mean, seriously, they could raise the leeward board or some other means to reduce the pitching moment if they really needed to.
Jake Kohl | | | Re: Sailing World Cup - Palma de Majorca
[Re: brucat]
#271088 04/03/14 11:09 AM 04/03/14 11:09 AM |
Joined: Jun 2001 Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD Mark Schneider
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Posts: 3,116 Annapolis, MD | Mark, the best teams make their own luck. The boats have equal design, and the teams have to decide how much time, and in what conditions, to prepare. The best teams will figure out how to best sail the boat, as designed, not how they (or anyone else) wish it was designed.
So long as all of the boats are the same, it's a fair event.
Besides, part of the whole draw to have a cat in the Olympics, Americas Cup, and any of us racing them, is the NASCAR aspect: the boats are fast, and it could all go wrong at any given moment.
Mike "Fair event" is a red herring... the gear is one design.. fair is not at question. "the best guys make their luck" is arm chair pundit like trope... Luck is luck and not the same as fairness OR excellence.. don't conflate them. We manage luck by running regattas with 10 events and allow a throw out. ISAF long ago screwed that basic principle of the game with double points in the medal event.. Why... because to attract eyeballs... they figured that the average viewer would not appreciate the game... (Why is the winner sitting on the beach with 9 first place finishes and NOT sailing in the last race???) SO... add in the possibility of "BAD LUCK" in a double points medal race and the game would be better ???.... YMMV.. but I think its crap. RE... NASCAR... ... it could all go wrong at any minute... IF that is a design parameter for all dinghies in the Olympics... Fine... BUT IT IS NOT... The design parameter was a boat that allowed the Olympic level of skill to sort itself out on the race course of 30 minutes or so duration (short courses) ... Nothing to do with luck or crashing and burning spectacle. Jake, ... re winglets possibly causing problems and certainly changing the boat's performance ISAF allowed and insisted on MULTIPLE FIXES to the 49ner when the boat was selected... IT WAS also half baked and was mostly Fixed by the the last two years of the quad. Secondly... the Norwegian program of 49ner medalists splitting up and starting on the N17 began a few months ago... and one pair was top 10 at the last look.... So, Basically... the best in the world can't manage the changes is a weak argument.. Equally lame... is the argument.. well they are really good and they can manage a half baked boat... TRUE but WHY should they have to... We deserved a better process from the ISAF technical committee AND better attention by ISAF to the last two years. Now they are in a pickle... The N17 is the boat for the NEXT quad as well for the MIXED .. So.. what do they do now... finish the quad (too late now for changes)... and THEN redesign the boat... There is no good time other then getting it right in the beginning.
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