Ding, see above...

My sense is that we have bigger fish to fry than changing our Handicapping system.

Mike

+1 as there appear to be less PHRF racing for beachcats than class/OD style events.

Are there THAT many sailors that are discouraged from racing because they feel their rating is unfair/someone has a rating "beater"?

A good point about dead boats and why their rating shouldn't change (except for mods) from when it was a popular class (like the N20 at 59.2?).

The DPN on popular fleets (F18, H16) should probably move as they develop new techniques (like "wild thing") and platform improvements.

So in theory, I could sail a little bit closer to the DPN on my I-18 if I improved the sailplan somewhat. The hull-form would probably be the limiting factor then.

Should the one-offs use some version of a SCHRS/DPN conversion until such time as there are enough boats for a 'pure' DPN based on actual performance? I guess it would still be somewhat based on skipper performance at that point, but that might be a blend of theoretical and actual performances...

+1 as there appear to be less PHRF racing for beachcats than class/OD style events ...

Beach Cats do not meet the criteria for PHRF certification, since that formula is used for larger boats that enjoy racing offshore. The Texel Rating system appears the most user - friendly system for custom one - offs. There is even a formula for foils.

apologies. I was thinking of the DPN numbers

+1. I honestly did not mean to stir up this can of worms. I will say it has been my experience that the better sailor usually wins when racing SCHRS. It is a pretty fair rating system at least between like-boats, i.e F-16, F-18, N20 and pre-foiling A-Cat.

The real topic of this thread was how to build participation at regattas. I continue to be of the opinion that if the F-16's pay to race, they are welcome on the F-18 course. Others may disagree but when sailed within the correct weight ranges these boats truly are very close in speed, angles etc. Yes, I would prefer there to be LESS options in the sailing world-seems to me the Nacra 17 has done little but suck F-18 sailors out of the fleet-but I would still rather see more boats at events period. Hosting F-16 only and F-18 only events are a little silly to me, would you prefer to race in a 15 boat fleet or a 30+ boat fleet with the potential for more female sailors??

Sam has his eye on the ball

The F-18 fleet got alot of those sailors from Tornado when it imploded, so they weren't really "f-18" sailors ,they were olympic class sailors.So when there was no Olympic class they went to the closest style ,best run class, which was and is F-18. You're only option to avoid it was to push the F-18 for Olympic status which would have been a big mistake and was handled well by the F-18 class.

You left out fleet size. For bigger fleets including more females, it's hard to beat the Hobie 16.

Mike

But... I want my cake and eat it too. Is it too much to ask for cool boats and hot chicks at the same time? Are they mutually exclusive?

Yes, the spin boats are 'too much work' for most women. Sorry if that comes across as sexist, but from what I've seen out on the race course, there are very few women who are up to the task of doing all the work a spin boat requires, in both the setup and the sailing. It's a huge PITA for me too. So much so that I'm considering buying a Hobie 16.

I wish it were not so, I would love to see more girls out there. I have 3 daughters whom I would love to have out there sailing with me (or against me) all day, but after each one got a few rides on my spin boats, they wanted no part of racing on them. They will all happily go out on the Hobie 14 and Prindle 18 in my backyard, but when it comes to racing and putting up and snuffing the spin, not so much.

That is why I have always envied you guys who have a willing female companion. My wife hates sailboats, she thinks the whole concept is antiquated and she calls it "Stupid". She would much rather I sell my sailboats and buy a power boat, so all she has to do is "Turn the Key" and go, no worrying about which way the wind is blowing, or even if there is any wind at all, or too little, or too much.

There are some frustrating days at no-wind regattas where I have to agree with her. Sitting on a sailboat with no wind, is about as much fun as sitting in a power boat...

with no gas!

Locally we have 4-5 vipers with ladies running the crew side. They seem to be doing well.

We race the f18 mixed, while my wife can crew, we do much better when I can convince her to drive.

I've always thought the spin boats go faster with the heavy guy at the crew position, and the lighter guy/girl at the back.

It seems to keep the boat more in trim that way. The only problem with that setup for me was, my girls were too intimidated by other boats, and didn't want to drive.

You sure slid into calling her "the wife" in a hurry!

Well I have had about 82 dozen reminders already!

Just wait until you get to...

99!

Very fair point, and I am happy that the F-18 class stayed out of the Olympic limelight. In reality, most of these sailors haven't sold their F18's and still show up for major events like Nationals/America's. The reality is we aren't attracting new people to the boats and I am not sure how to change that mindset??

Women are more than capable of crewing if you set the boat up correctly for them with a 12:1 mainsheet and double ratchets on the kite. The Nacra 17's has over half the fleet with females crewing and men driving, and word on the street is sheet loads are much higher than on the 18 (remember, double trapped downwind with the kite up). Reality is they pouched the best crews from other classes (470's, Laser Radials etc.), paired with the top catamaran skippers, who happen to be male because we don't like to hand over the helm (don't try and spin it your way timbo-girls aren't scared to play bumper boat), and you end up with a winning combination. As the class matures and more female sailors gain experience driving, I suspect we'll see a role reversal. But to expect trickle down into the F-18 or F-16's fleet is naive.

How do we attract more of those CofC sailors to our fleets post graduation?

My post regarding DPN was an example that even when a possible solution is presented that might move something in a positive direction it's dismissed and we go right back to banging on a solution that has no hope of working (submitting data). And this attitude is what is wrong and needs to be fixed. Seems like everyone is so afraid of failing they won't ever try to stick their neck out to make something happen.

Ping me when you guys come up with a plan it's getting boring reading the same sh!t over and over. Until then I'll keep doing what I'm doing.

Spin it any way you want Ding. Where's your big plan? Are you going to own this new system? Step right up and make it happen.

Mike

SCHRS works fine and is updated with real world data yearly.

OK, so far we have Mark Schneider, Dave Ingram, and Sam in favor of changing to a new system.

What we need is a champion. Don't pass the buck to me, you haven't sold me that this is a need and clear improvement.

Draft a proposal, and be willing to fight for it, then to own implementation. I'll be more than happy to add it to the agenda for discussion by the MHRC.

Mike