Sam,

Just to clarify some of the things you've posted. People should get informed about what HCA does or doesn't do by checking out nahca.org [color:"blue"] [/color] or hobieclass.com [color:"blue"] [/color] or hobiecat.com/community [color:"blue"] [/color] or geocities.com/hobietigerpages/news [color:"blue"] [/color] . You've made some statements that have no factual basis...they are just emotional responses. The issue of Hobie going back to strict one design class racing is emotional for all involved. Some will lose out while others will gain. It's the typical "can't please everyone" scenario. It's time to move forward.

Regarding Tiger changes...I suspect you do not own or sail an F18 compliant boat. Proposed Tiger/F18 changes are sent to owners via email for inputs and feedback. Some are enacted and others are rejected. The changes are part of the constantly evolving F18 class and are necessary to keep the Tiger at the cutting edge. Hobie is fully supportive of F18 racing around the world. Even Doug Skidmore, President of Hobie Cat, was pulling marks with Jack Young of Performance Catamarans at the NAF18 NA's in Pensacola last October.

Did you know that the HCA financially supports the Worlds, Continentals and regional championships (MWE, MWW, Mid Americas, NE Champs and NW Champs) for ALL Hobie classes? That this support tickles down to the weekend divisional regattas? That they support GEP, WOW and Fast'n'Fun? Have you ever attended a AGM? Have you ever cast a ballot on class motions to your fleet commodore who takes results to the division chairperson who represents YOU at the AGM for a council vote? Have you ever been an elected division chairperson or a member of the NA executive council or International executive council? I suspect not. This is the class infrastructure. It's not much different than the US Congress or Senate structure. The procedures are basically the same. All Hobie owners should get involved...it's YOUR class. Don't sit on the sidelines and complain. Let your voice be heard where it counts. Not on a forum.

Did you know of the grass roots effort by class members to resurrect production of the H17? That it will probably succeed on a limited basis?

I've been sailing and racing Hobies (16,17,18,20 and Tiger) all over the world for 28 years. I've experienced the golden years and the decline. Sailing Hobies has been a huge part of my life and will continue to do so. But I know one thing...I have TOO MUCH FUN sailing my boat and I will keep sailing it until they bury me. I've voiced my opinions and I'm done posting on forums.

Now if this damn snow will just melt.

John Bauldry
NAHCA Treasurer 2001-2003
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI

Except in the case of the HCA,the general membership can not elect its officers.

No disrespect to you John , just pointing out an issue with the current class infrastructure.

Tracie

Tracie,

I was just referring to how issues are voted upon. Kind of how the electorate get congressmen/senators to vote on important issues before they become law. Not who elects officials. No worries...sorry for not clarifying.

JB

John,
The HCA has been very good as far as getting the opinions of and voting of issue with the Tigers.
Any Tiger owner/sailor should appreciate that. I know I do.

Tracie

As emotions come into play and people feel that the rug has been pulled out from under them, you need to get back to the facts and what really happened here and not feel sorry for the sport of Cat sailing.

This could be a new beginning for open class organizations as well as those of us that prefer to race in a very strict One-design environment. The common goal that many do not recognize is that there is a difference between open class sailing and Hobie Class One-design sailing. Many of you will argue the term One-design sailing, my definition of One-design is; Large fleets, all sailing on the same type and size of boats under strict class rules. Open class often has rules, but typically is a group of many different boats. Many of them do not comply within their own class rules. F18 is a fantastic attempt at creating a One-design 18-foot class and I support all of their efforts but the only way it will be successful is the sailors must keep their boats within the F18 rules. When I raced in Europe at Texel I was very impressed with the F18 and F20 measuring, weighing etc. that went on. It gave me a great feeling of equality. However this is still a different animal with a wider approach on class rules then Hobie Class racing and it should also stand-alone and hopefully be successful.

The Hobie class remains strong world wide because of the relationship between the class, its members, the rules committee and most importantly the manufacture for continuing to spit out boats that could easily be updated instead they have built boats for over 25 years that comply within the class rules. Yes there have been small upgrades and rule changes yet most have been well thought out and designed to have a minimal impact on the racers pocket book.

Open sailing is another world and it is a good world just different than what the Hobie class has always stood for. In my career I have found that the most enjoyable racing is a large fleet all on identical boats racing with friends. This is my personal preference but at the same time I completely understand the desire to race open class boats. In my world we could all be in bathtubs and it would be great as long as they were all the same brand of tub.

As I read these threads many people have more then one boat. I believe that another way to consider this is that some people may show up to a Hobie regatta with their Hobie 16 and add to the numbers of that fleet to create a better one design racing fleet and that same person may bring their Taipan to the open class regatta the following weekend to race in it as well. It has always been the belief of my father, Hobie, and Hobie Cat racing that a strict one-design program is the root of the success of the Hobie Class. The more boats of the same class and size equals better racing. Hobie Cat racing has never swayed from this thought process that is why many of us still love to sail that VW bug (Hobie 16) around the course with a whole fleet of bugs to race against.

I was not involved in the recent meetings to make this decision, nor do I know where it will go from here. This is what I do know or at least this is my personal opinion on what the thought process is.

1. In an effort to rebuild Hobie One-design racing, the HCA (NAHCA) and IHCA with the support of the Hobie Cat Company decided to go back to their roots and grow their own classes as was done successfully through the 70’S and 80’S by only allowing class legal Hobie Cats to race at their sanctioned events. Note “class legal” as this does not mean all Hobie’s only those that have maintained their boats within the class rules.

2. The HCA (NAHCA), IHCA and the Hobie Cat Company are not trying to hurt open cat sailing. They only want to see open class, F18 class and any other catamaran sailing or racing thrive while standing on it’s own and functioning under the open class formats.

3. The thought process behind this was not a mandate from Hobie Cat Co. It has been discussed amongst the HCA (NAHCA), Hobie Cat and the IHCA for the past 10 years as to whether or not allowing X boats to race at sanctioned Hobie events is good or bad for the size and quality of racing for the Hobie class. After reviewing the past 10 years, the majority of the HCA (NAHCA) and its active vocal members concluded that the X boats were not increasing one design racing. If anything, they were fragmenting the existing Hobie classes.

4. The Hobie Cat Co. can also be blamed for fragmenting its own classes by introducing so many different Hobie boats. Economically, it was imperative for the Hobie Cat Co. to stay in business to cater to the beginner and family market of cat sailing. They have introduced a range of non-racing cats that have brought many people to the sport of cat sailing. They now feel it would be good to focus on certain boats for racing and assist to grow these fleets while still selling recreational boats.

5. The Hobie Cat Co. was slow to get into the high performance boat market and certainly missed a beat in the days of the Prindle 19 and the Nacras. They now have caught up and currently build a solid range of boats to appeal to all types of competitors. The H16 is a fantastic inexpensive simple race boat that appeals to both the advanced sailor and the beginner sailor. The H17 is a great single-handed boat, the H20 is a great boat for the high performance non-spinnaker boat that has all the bells and whistles of the Tiger or even a Tornado. The Tiger is a fantastic boat that is fast fun raced with spinnaker and manufactured F18 legal and has won a few F18 worlds. There are pockets of TheMightyHobie18’s and even H14’s still racing and they are also good boats and I do not think anybody wants to discourage them from racing but focusing on fewer boats will create bigger fleets.

6. The decision of the HCA (NAHCA) is not a DIG on cat sailing. It is an effort to get more focus on the boats they represent with hopes to have larger starts with their primary racing boats; the H17, TheMightyHobie18, H Tiger, H20 while still allowing all other class legal Hobie's to race with hopes of them switching into the focused classes. At the same time hoping that maybe some of the open guys will consider dragging out their old Hobie or purchasing a used or new Hobie in addition to their open boat and joining in with this group.

7. There is an amazing amount of great people that have been involved over the years in the HCA (NAHCA) and IHCA and they deserve all of the respect in the world for keeping cat sailing alive. Most of these people are one design, same boat, and large fleet type of people and are part of Hobie racing because that is the format they prefer. I personally want to thank each and every one of them for preserving Hobie class sailing and allowing me to share this with my son and family. Hobie sailing has been my life for 35 years I was six when my father built the Hobie 14. This allowed me the opportunity to compete in a great sport and to meet fantastic people around the world with common interests.

8. For those of you that have never been to a Hobie Worlds or even a Continentals it is very hard for you to have a complete understanding of the big picture. With out the support of the regions around the world, the manufactures and the class members these events would not take place. These events are instrumental in giving people something to strive for and once you have participated in a Hobie Worlds, I’m sure you will be coming back for more. From the Thursday night fleet races, to weekend points regatta, the continentals and then a worlds, these events are all equally important and are part of the food chain that makes the Hobie class successful. The Hobie class has a ton of things to manage just with our own fleets and goals give them a chance.

Many of you that don’t know me probably think that I’m just another Hobie Cat Company puppet. On the contrary, my father Hobie sold the boat business in 1976 and my family receives no income from boat sales. My family’s attachment to the Hobie brand is primarily in the Surfboard industry, which does not have a lot of crossover with sailing. My family’s attachment to Cat Sailing is for the love of the sport!
I still compete in events Domestically and Internationally, I have raced in the last three Tiger Worlds with as many as 85 Tigers on the starting line (talk about fun), and I have raced F20 on a Hobie Fox in around Texel. I will be racing at the Hobie 16 worlds with my 11 year old son as crew (his first worlds) in a 200+ competitors round robin series with 56 brand new Hobie 16’s on the line in Cancun, I currently race a Tiger on the West Coast with currently 16 tigers on the line at a weekend Hobie regatta. I have done many guest expert seminars, campaigned a Tornado in 1984 and finished third in the US Olympic trials. I have sailed Stiletto nationals, many monohull events, competed in the Pro-series sailing series on a Hobie 21 and a formula 40 also raced in the Hogs Breath 1000 twice etc. etc. Most of my sailing I have paid for out of my own pocket. I was the Executive Director for the Hobie Class in the late 80’s early 90’s. I was involved with the NAHCA when they moved to allow X boats and I currently sit on the IHCA rules committee. In my position on the rules committee the manufactures and the additional regional members know that I will always favor the class over the manufactures and I’m one for slow moderate rule changes that keep our Hobie boats as equal as possible. I will always support the class and strict one-design rules as these rules are what make our class strong. I know all of the players involved personally and I know how hard these people work to maintain the HCA (NAHCA).

For those of you that don’t understand the bigger picture HCA, IHCA and the rest of the regions around the world just go to hobieworlds.com and look at the list of competitors competing at the worlds on Hobie 16’s.

I usually do not like to participate in this kind of Forum, as I know much of what I have said here will be taken out of context and used against the class, the Hobie manufactures and probably me. If you do not hear from me again on this subject please realize I’ve said my peace and I do not intend to compete in a battle of words, I only want to sail amongst friends on equal equipment.

Sincerely
Jeff Alter

Matt, you are funny.
You didn't like the content of what I said, so you had to reply, but you ended up agreeing with SIX of my SEVEN statements and the realization of that has made you even madder.
The same thing happened to John Bauldry.
YOU BOTH AGREED WITH ME AND IT IS BURNING YOU UP!

Now, instead of trying to prove my statements wrong, you have resorted to personality assasination.
Make the person seem bad therefore what they say is bad.

I am "Acting Commodore" of Fleet 97 because I can't get any of the other members(the 20 year people) to take the job.
I can't get them to return their membership or election ballots.
I can't get them to volunteer for any Fleet positions.
I am not the webmaster.

What does your 31 years have to do with my statements? You agreed with me, remember?
Oh I see! You are trying to counteract my factual statements of "bad things" with your unrelated "good things".
Sorry, no points for that.

Since when is "having done something" a requirement for stating facts or voicing an opinion?
How is it "uninformed, viscious commentary" when the two of you AGREED WITH ME?


David,
Exactly what I was saying, people are uninformed, they need to get informed. Finally a constructive, informative statement.
Too bad Matt chose to attack me instead of helping the other sailors.

Which statements have "no factual basis"?

RE: Rule changes
My point is that rule change proposals for the Tiger quickly appeared, were discussed and rapidly approved, whereas the few rule changes for the H-14/16 are on a two year schedule.
SOMEBODY decided that the Tiger should take priority and too bad for the H14/16 racers.
Members are requested to email their comments to IHCA and maybe, just maybe, they will receive consideration.

I said nothing about H-Corp./NAHCA/IHCA support of the NAF18 or iF18 Class.
But I am curious how they can support an event with many X-Boats in it and not violate the edict.

I know that H-Corp.NAHCA/IHCA supports the big events. You forgot to mention that they even provide boats at some of them.
But I know that there has NEVER BEEN ANY trickle down to Division 9 weekend regattas, unless you are referring to that box of catalogs, koozies and keychains that H-Corp. donates.

RE: H-17
I am well informed about that effort. I know the person who started it, I have been copied on emails and we have a forum dedicated to it on the Division 9 Forums.

And like Matt, your many years of fun and friends does not dispute my commentary on the present state of informed participation.

If the two of you have worked so hard, for so long, why are so many people uninformed and uninvolved?
Do you accept responsibility for the failures or is it someone else?
Is it my fault because I point it out?
How do you fix a problem if all you want to do is complain when someone points it out.

You can keep shooting at the messenger, but that will never kill a true message.

I must have had way too much coffee this AM.

Truce, OK?

I can't say anything more than what Jeff Alter already has on the "edict," therefore I have some constructive suggestions:



You're expressing a lot of the same frustrations that we've had at the top levels of the NAHCA for years. Let's face it, there's less than 1% of the sailors out there that care enough to put in the time (even to vote) to help administer the sport.

But I digress - Sam, you're in the same position that my own fleet was in. Nobody volunteered to do anything anymore, so it just kind of went away.

It took the energy of only one person, Jeff Rabidoux, to get us started again. I suggest you drop the "Acting" prefix from your title. Take the initiative. Be the webmaster. (If you know how to post in this forum, you can create a website.) Promote the fleet. Set realistic goals, and concentrate on fun events, not racing.

We (Fleet 276) hooked up with a local sailing club who gave us a start at their Wed. night races. We were out with the J-24's and J-35's, and we had a great time. So what if there were only 5 Hobies on the line (a few 16's, a 20, an 18SX, and my 17). Most of the 16's were ancient and didn't have Comp-tips. Afterward, we'd retire to the club for burgers & beer. It was like a bowling league for Hobies!

Jeff R. put together a Fleet building PowerPoint presentation for our Division 10 meeting last weekend. It's got a lot of great ideas for finding and keeping fleet members. I'm sure he'd be willing to send it to you on CD. The presentation assumes you're starting from scratch, which it sounds like you are.

Jeff, I know you're monitoring this thread - can you contact Sam & arrange to get him the CD?

I have a soft spot for Fleet 97 - there's a guy named Bob Hall who used to be active in Raleigh fleet. His father and mine bought 2 Hobie 16's at the Richmond boat show in early 1973 and started us both down this long, strange trip.

Good luck, Sam.

Matt Bounds
Hobie Fleet 221 (Richmond, VA)
Hobie Fleet 231 (southern Maine)
Hobie Fleet 276 (Detroit, MI)

Don't Fear the Speed, Fear the Addiction!

you a start isn't it. To bad the Hobie edict discourages you from returning the favor.

Dave

Matt


That is why I think it is wrong for HCA to say we can't sail with other open boats in seperate classes. That club helped the Hobies out and the way you say thanks is will you put on a regatta for the Hobies only.

I would first like to thank Rick and Mary for providing this forum, and then to thank all the participants. Sam you are a Champion for our sport! Jeff, and Matt, my thanks to you as well. I think maybe we are getting somewhere! Brian McCarter, H17, Fleet 448

Jeff Alter

Thanks for writing and I enjoyed your post.

My first boat was a H16 and I like one design racing and have been to several nationals, but not any world events.
I do disagee with the HCA's new policyes and think that there could be a better way to increase the Hobie fleets.
I guess that I am not the only one by looking at the amount of post on this subject. With a change in the rules this big I think that the HCA members should be able to vote. It has come to my attention that the members gave up there right to vote in 2001. I was a member in 2001 and I never voted or even read anything about a vote of members giving up there rights. Several people have tryed to find out about this and checked with some HCA officers with no results (if any one has a copy of the NAHCA or the results please let us know). It appears that the HCA is working outside the bylaws.Where does all the membership money go,nationals, worlds,newsletters,ect? I for one can't remember Division 9 ever getting any. Most of the news letters I get come after the event is over and I have already read it on line (waste of money).

As far as Hobie Cat Co., thanks to your dad fun coming up with such a great idea. You talked about racing classes H17 and TheMightyHobie18,how long to you think they will last with out any more being made ( some friend sails on your TheMightyHobie18 and likes it and says I want to get one of these oh you can't they quit making them in 2003). The H16 is a fun boat but some just want more and are to heavy to compete.The H20 is loseing out to the Tiger and Nacra 20. The Fox and FX1 are just bad designs and had poor marketing on Hobies part.

Most of the fleets in Division 9 are small and only exist on paper. The same people every year after year put on there own local regatta with very little help because they love sailing. Most are held at sail clubs and all muiltihuls are welcome. We had our last Regatta about three years ago in Wilmington NC. I put it on for three years with little help except for some other division 9 members. Have not had a fleet meeting in 7 or 8 years(no members). I got a list form the local Hobie dealer(closed about a year ago) and sent out an email to all the boat owners, I did not even get one response. The division 9 regattas seem to be getting a little more boats, but it looks like the HCA is really hurting our us.

Dave & Dave,

We don't violate the edict by sailing with the mono club. It's not an HCA sanctioned event. We exist as a Hobie Fleet separate and apart from them. They just give us a start. We have had other events (fun sails) that didn't involve them at all. You guys should check out our website Detroit Hobie Fleet 276 to see what we did last summer. BTW, our website was put together by a fleet member that taught himself web design by doing the fleet website.

Matt

Hello Matt

Can a Hobie fleet keep their name and run regattas: EG Hobie Fleet XX chooses to sponsor and run all non sanctioned regattas? Can they use an H for a Hobie class flag for a Hobie class start?

If the issue simply distills down to "Is the same old same old regatta called a Hobie Points regatta" .... Well it will start to diminish as an issue...

If you want to go racing and the regatta of the week is not called a points regatta... would you cut your nose to spite your face?

Thanks
Mark

I really don't know, Mark. I expect there will be some clarification eventually. Don't forget that the flying "H" logo and "Hobie Cat" name are trademarks and are subject to use with permission from the Hobie Cat Company and the Alter family (not the HCA). They've been pretty free with their permission in the past. I can't comment on the future.

When we got our start from the mono club, they used a number pennant to designate our class start, just like they did for the other classes. It was no big deal - it just cost them 5 extra minutes and 3 extra bangs out of the propane cannon. We were out for fun and you could hardly call what we did "racing." Half the boats weren't even class legal.

I think problems will arise when you want to use the strict one-design rules, the HCA standard sailing instructions, HCA standard courses, etc. It also is a problem when "Hobie Fleet XX" or "HCA Division XX" is the Organizing Authority on the Notice of Race. That, to me, smells like a HCA sanctioned event, and would fall under the auspices of the edict.

I'm speculating here, though. Like I said, we all expect some logistical clairification in the next couple of months from the HCA.

Matt

What do you mean about the members giving up their right to vote?

Hi Matt

I was directed to the Hobie Div 9 web site where these kinds of questions were answered by Rich McVeigh.

My understanding is No... you can't use your Hobie Fleet name for these events.

Take Care
Mark

Mary

I guess that only HCA officers and division chairs can vote and elect officers. I have been a member for the last 7 years and have never seen a ballot in a HAHCA news letter. I did not see an announcement of the last meeting the HCA had in Atlanta according to the bylaws. A friend of mine is a dealer in Atlanta and they did not even know there was a meeting.

Sam raised a damn good question. How can Hobie support a National F-18 event? Can't mention it on the HCA or IHCA website, or show it in any division book, or allow the "H" to show up on any third-party flyers. They can give money to the event (and won't it be neat to see the factory DIRECTLY FUNDING an open event) and personnaly help out, but according to the WORD, that's about it. Of course, they can do whatever they want; who can sanction the sanctioneers?

Now, the more rational would say that's a detail that can be worked out. Well, wouldn't it have made sense to hold off on this thing for a while, ease into it with a less aggressive phase out, and work out the details BEFORE you piss the hell out of everybody with a sweeping all-at-once nasty-gram? Thank you, I feel better now.

Dave and All,

Here is some NAHCA History:

The first bylaws were approved in 1993. They appeared in the Jun/Jul '93 issue of the NAHCA News along with a ballot for approval by the general membership. (I found the returned ballots in my basement - I am such a pack rat!) There were about 60 ballots returned. NAHCA Membership at the time was 1200+. A pretty poor showing.

These first bylaws gave the individual members voting rights and they were responsible for electing officers and approving bylaw changes.

The bylaws were revised in 1995, again based on a membership-wide ballot printed in the Jun/Jul '95 NAHCA News. The changes were administrative in nature and no changes to voting rights were made.

No changes were made to the NAHCA By-laws for 5 years. Officer positions were always uncontested, therefore no ballots were printed in the newsletter.

At the 2000 NAHCA AGM in Kingston, Ont., a bylaws committee was formed to update the bylaws. This was the meeting where I stepped down as NAHCA Chairman and Nigel Pitt became Chairman.

This is where things kind of fall apart. The current version of the NAHCA Bylaws (dated May 1, 2001, posted here ) are 99% the same as those approved in 1995. They still grant members the right to vote, but they don't have anything to vote on anymore. Basically, all business of the NAHCA, including officer elections and by-law revisions, is governed by the Board of Directors, which consists of the Division Chairmen and the Women's Representative. (Note that NAHCA officers do not have voting rights except as individual members).

I can't find anything in my files where the 5/01 changes to the bylaws were approved by a general membership vote as they should have been under the 1995 bylaws. (Doesn't mean it didn't happen, but I don't remember one, either.) I can understand the reasoning behind the changes - it's logistically difficult and time-consuming to conduct a membership-wide vote, although today's technology may overcome that objection. It's also very disappointing when you get less than 5% participation.

If you want to point a finger for the hiccup in procedure, you don't have far to go. This happened on Nigel's watch.

End of lesson.

Oh, and BTW, I'm pretty sure the meeting took place in Atlantic City, not Atlanta. The bylaws do provide for such meetings, however, no voting can take place.

What exactly are you insinuating, Matt.

Tracie