Saw a post elsewhere that proposed a 14-foot class association or something to the effect. I own a 14-foot boat and would be interested in seeing something develop. I have enjoyed sailing against other, similar-performing boats at the events I've attended as a skipper. The thought that some of the 14-footers out there might get together, break free of potentially outdated and limiting one-design rules, and start a loose "formula" style movement sounds great! My one-design class association has been terrific in setting up rules that allow for innovation and experimentation with sails, hardware, and number of crew. We're at http://mystereowners.org/mystere/ if anyone's interested.

I like the idea of racing Bob Curry's H14 with that square-top main and huge headsail... Bring the noise, BC!

John, Bob Curry proposed the idea of a Formula 14 class, and Carl Bohannon posted the following response. It was on that unbearably long thread about the NAHCA policy, so I am copying it over to here. Thanks for starting a new thread about this.

Posted by Carl Bohannon in reply to Bob Curry:
"Let's start a Formula 14 class"

I will take a stab at it.

First as I learned in playing with my wife's wave, small boats are cheap to experiment with. Make it an experimenter's class.

Second, limit it so anybody can right one, make light skippers (women) even, and the boats still fun when the wind is 20+ kts

Third, since there are unlikely to be more than 1 or 2 in an area make the rules loose enough that they can be a real pain to the bigger boats when the wind is light or strong.

Last and most important, don't complicate it.


______________________________________________________________________________
Rules

Anyone can claim to race under "14" rule, anyone can protest them. Obvious violators subject to public humiliation


Max length (excluding rudders) 14 ft
max waterline width 8.5 ft
Max mast length TBD (22-24ft?) ft (or restrict sail luff length)
Max main sail area excluding mast 120 ft2 per ISAF
optional- max other sail area 150 ft2( will change Portsmouth number)
Sail area to be written on sail by sailmaker or measurer if sail does not conform to a one design class


wings may be used on existing boats that are narrower than 8.5 ft
max width = waterline width + 2*(8.5 -waterline width)

(since the boats will work best with light crew this next part may be worthless)
light skipper width = max width +(160x8.5/skipper weight-8.5)
any skipper caught cheating on light skipper width may exonerate themselves by sailing the next regatta with no tiller extension)

Class legal Prindle 15, Supercat 15, any aquacat, and ? can race under 14 rule. Non class legal sails must conform to max sail area

Note to rules: These rules are wbeing written to make having fun easier and to get more boats on the water. The were rules written when all boats involved are old designs or something cobbled together in a garage, if this changes the rules may have to be revised
_____________________________________________________________________________


In case you are wondering why I bothered with this?

It started when I bought some old catamaran books and discovered there used to be a lot of ~14ft catamarans, some of which looked fast. I started wondering what happened to them.

Now I am building a 14ft tunnelhull/catamaran for the Wed Night Races in Houston.
CARL BOHANNON, HOUSTON, TEXAS

I love it, Carl -- the "experimenters" class.

Wouldn't it be ironic if the cheap-little-boat class became THE development class, accessible to and sailable by women, children and old people -- and yet providing an outlet for the tinkerer that lives in all of us?

The greatest part being that I can actually see undertaking the scratch construction of my own 14' boat. That would be a hoot!

That is exactly what the Moths have done

Very interesting class the Moths

Wouter

Carl,
Will it be possible to have at least a roller-furling headsail, like a hooter/screacher? This might be important if only because the new ISAF youth boat is going to have a spinnaker. An actual spinnaker would be tough for a single-hander, but a roller-furling reacher is something even an old lady like me could handle.

Anyway, then this Formula 14 class could also serve as a trainer class for the younger kids that are going to move up to the official youth boat with spinnaker. And the kids would also get the benefit of all the wisdom of us old people -- yeah, right, after they beat the pants off us out on the race course.

Oh, well, never mind. It was just a thought.

could ya slip in the Nacra 450

Dont forget my favorite 14' boat- the Trac 14!

Also, isn't there a "Cheshire Cat" out by the Isotope's manufacturer. It's supposedly a full-blown miniature racer.

yes the chesire I think is a 13' boat.

its pretty cute.

In response to Mary:

Under the rules I proposed , a hooter is a "other sail". "other sail" could literally be anything or any combination. I used 150 ft2 to cover a small jib and a hooter or spin. Sailing open class under US Sailing Portsmouth rules, a Hooter and a Spin are treated the same. There is no problem with using a hooter in NA. Sailing under texel rules you would take a hit for a hooter.

I would really like to see a boat that anyone could sail. For years have watched women crew struggle to transition from crew to skipper in catamarans and finally give up because of the physical demands. A couple of years ago I was surprised to see a woman I thought had dropped out of sailing, with a Vanguard 15. I asked her why the monohull and she showed me how she could take from the storage rack to sailing and back, by herself, anytime she wanted. In recent years I have become interested in a boat for me. Hoisting a 31 foot mast lost it's allure years ago.

I think mast height is the key element. This will determine righting weight, ease of raising the mast, and stability. It will indirectly drive weight and structural loads. With unlimited mast height, designs will eventually move to the limits of stability or the physical capabilities of the crew. In general, the shorter the mast the more stable in puffy, windy, choppy conditions. For example, Waves and Hobie 14's start to come alive under conditions 5.5 uni's start looking at the beach.


In response to Wouter:

Yes there is lot of Moth in this. The problem I have with the moth is: the current favorites are about the most unstable boats I can imagine. They banned the catamaran configuration in the 70's when the Tunnelhulls started taking over. (think of a 50 lbm Laser Vortex or Hobie Bravo.) I think they might lead the world in small catamaran design if they had continued. Also the Moth homebuilders seem to be the masters of creating super high tech, cheap.

To everyone:

if you want to get this thing going, start cheap. Write some basic rules, set up a class association that provides nothing but an emailed membership certificate and negotiate a Portsmouth number probably based on a Mystere or a Hobie Dragoon. Then in a couple of years, check back and see if there is enough interest to expand or even to continue.

Finally keep the humor in it. We are doing this for fun and we are not competing for anything of value.

Excellent -in all regards , great intent .

Don,t forget the Catyak -

Don,t make fun of 14 s either ,-they are great.
Great John , Mary good ideas as always ,Carl B good rules outline !

This sounds GREAT ,-good basic simple rules for all 14s
some 15s ?
have a SC 15 ,-its really a fun boat ,-I,ve taken it out in high wind conditions and weather on the little lake we're on and just had the best time with it pushing it to its extreme limits ,--where it would pitchpole ,-flip , etc etc ,-If you really want to know and understand a particular boat take it out {wear some padding} and good pfd and test it to extreme ,flip it pitchpole it stand out on the bows and submerge them in seas ,-it eliminates apprehension and builds confidence in knowing the limits and not being afraid of pushing to hard or a capsize if you make an error . Highly recommend doing this ,take a football type friend along . A 14 -15 can be an amazingly fast seaworthy craft with proper proportional sail area design and balance and crew not afraid of it.

Take this F-14 -15 type class rule and think of applying it in larger context -
if you would --
Should this type of racing and class be encouraged in each length category ? YES of course it should ,-what could be more fun and get more people out and involved .

-
In the 14 proposed F class how do we assure fair fun competition and that boats race equally and have a chance to win given diverse existing 14 designs ? --
Just as proposed !! ,- set basic Length beam weight and sail area ,-then define minor design options and variables from there , add spin snuffer systems ,get a new class designated same size sq top main if desired then options per design within outlined rules concerning wings boards foils etc -

If we used a design measurement rating system that uses Length beam weight and sail area this would largely already be accomplished !!! ISAF for cats is a good one
-improve it a bit for use in N A and use the best aspects of other rating ideas and systems ,--then temper this by checking times periodically per P rating system of comparing relative times --but by {equal ability crews} . --But again the main goal is to define classes by design measurement and encourage them to race in equal measurement groups {like 14s}.

Our priorities should be towards sport ,-not promoting one brand over another .If boat mfg. and one type brand boat dealer{most now sell a number of brand types} really want to increase their sales what better way than to increase total market ,-With the classification and modification target available per max sail area and spin snuffer system a new market potential opens ,-old boats become interesting new ones ,-younger people have an opportunity for an economical starter boat that still has all the bells and whistles {they can now add} and are encouraged to do ,-plus the move up and new market becomes more active due to total increase and partisipation .


The aspect of being able to get older existing boats out and revamping them very inexpensivly IS A GREAT ONE -
I found the S cat that had been parked under a tree in a neighbors backyard for approximately ten years ,-it was not recognizable due to moss and mold that had covered it ,ripped tramp ,-mice had eaten holes through the sails ,but the mast and rigging looked good as did rudders though all lines and sheets needed to be replaced ,blocks were good as was misc hardware . It turned out to be a SC 15 ,--promptly purchased for 100 bucks ,-SOLD !
-I called Tom {great guy} at Aquarious Sails Supercat and ordered a set a almost new sails very inexpensively and a new halyard system , Don at Salty Dog made a custom tramp with storage pockets and spin bag built in and picked up new sheets ,-Lots of cleaning , a little ding repair and a few rudder bolts later and we were sailing at a coat of about 600 total !!
I tryed a larger spin snuffer system on it ,but need to order one the correct size ,-What a great boat

I also have a H-18 I,d like to do the same with and race with snuffer spin ---in a more open 18 spin type class -
maybe a sub class of F-18s

And race the Inter 20 but would prefer a Formula 20 class
as per Formula 20 forum .
Thinking of using a Nacra 6/0 platform --basic hulls boards etc and using the Inter 20 cf mast and sailplan on it ,-- racing the Atlantic 1000 as a Formula 20 -
suppose some might call it a Nacrinter 6/0 .

Similar combinations of hulls mast and rig rudder board componants are possible in any boat in any length category .
I have 3 boys {our own fleet} if we all got a singlehander ,-and would like to get them going more this season on inexpensive boats they can work on themselves .
Many catsailors out there, based on this 14 class concept, would enjoy the same ,it seems it is very much the preference of most .

My God Carl,
Can't you let ANYBODY have a thread without you dumping your NEF20(non-existant formula) crap on them?
What does your old H-18 have to do with this discussion?
Your same old speech about a new handicap system (which you are too lazy to develop).
What does your touching story about the SC 15 have to do with anything?

My God Sam,-quote

"Can't you let ANYBODY have a thread without you dumping your crap on them?"
nice sammy -if you have some personal problem directly with me please use the private e ,-I,ve never met you ,- and have no idea what your problem is . Very tired of personal derogatory insinuations as to character.

sam>>What does your touching story about the SC 15 have to do with anything?

If you read ? the SC 15 is mentioned as part of this proposed class.--
Generally a sailing forum is for fellow sailors to share their experiences ,ideas, concepts , idealy in some constructive manner to improve the sport ,-
not personal attack because you can not comprehend basic fact ,-like the 15 being part of this proposed class.

Tell us Sam since you choose to make public characterizations ,-do the people in your local government munisipality that you work with know you get on public sailing forums and personally attack others for no reason other than they responded to a potential class of boat they own and are interested in for their children and that simply offered the idea that an expanded version be available for others in various length categories ?
as per 18s and 20 .

That is the obvious pertainant corelation ,

sam>>Your same old speech about a new handicap system (which you are too lazy to develop).

The ISAF for cats is not new ,-It would be simple to adopt and could be improved for use in N A ,
-It is not up to any individual to develop a rating system

Some areas for improvement and concepts were listed last year .

ISAF rating states --
"Whilst it is accepted that the ideal Rating system is one which uses historical results, a Portsmouth Yardstick type system, it has proved difficult to obtain sufficient data to validate such a system around the World. The SCHRS enables new designs to be rated quickly, and allows International regattas to take place with a common handicapping system for many types of Catamaran.

The purpose of these regulations are to enable trampoline multihulls of various types to race together on a comparative basis, and to protect the interests of the owners in keeping development under control without hindering further research.

It is recognized that one-design and level rating are generally a more realistic test of sailing skill. For events organised under these regulations, organizing authorities may consider separate arrangements for one-design or level rating classes present in sufficient numbers."
end quote -

The interest and goal should be to use a system that encourages good class racing ,-these groups as proposed per Carl B for a F-14-15 are excellent .

Please send a private e in the future ,
or please call -
thank you

Guys,

Please respect the intent of this thread. If you have personal issues, toddle on over to the open forum.

Respectfully,

Bob Curry

i'm into building kayaks now- 15' hull at 32 lbs and i can picture a 130# boat with ply hulls and ply wingmast within the parameters. and very inexpensive, bring it on, i'd love a singlehander that weighs as much as a laser, kickass !: )

how in the world do you build a wing mast from plywood?

Mike Fahle pulled together some specs on some of the boats we're talking about - http://mystereowners.org/mystere/43specs.html

The 450 is 14'10" - too big, or get 'em all in?

Sail area - main and jib (or main only) up to 130 sq. ft.? That gets the 4.3 but not the 14 Turbo... I'd hate for the Turbo guys to have to buy new sails other than a screecher... or should we just have a TOTAL sail area limit - then the Turbo is in, just with a smaller headsail, which they'd be adding anyway. Say, 282 sq. ft. total sail area excluding mast, mast height limit of 24 ft. I picked 282 because that the area for the 4.3, which is the only 14-footer with jib, main and spin already on the boat. Simpler, cheaper (no current sails to replace, fewer new sails to buy).

Pick a crew weight or not, give 'em all a number around 78 and let's try it out - race each other straight up, but try to start with other classes to see if the number is close.

There's a gaggle of scurvy dogs in the OSYC clubhouse RIGHT NOW talking about this, ready to pull some 14s out of retirement!

John,

I've been collecting data and would like to talk with you about this concept over the weekend. I sent you my phone number the other day to your catsailor email address. Carl Bohannon has some good ideas and I have everything printed out!

Bob

plywood wingmasts arent new, the cross section looks like a model airplane wing with a spar at the widest part, and a smaller spar at the leading and trailing edges, sheathed with ply and glass or carbon. maybe the new class, as in model airplane contests, could be called 1/2 A : ) should be simple to build.

hey bob curry my 14 T is languishing with a broken comp tip, know where i can get a mast?