Lots of comments on limits to sail area. Just to examine specifics, the Mystere 4.3 website compares STOCK boat specs.

http://mystereowners.org/mystere/43specs.html

Now Mr. Bob, would you share the specs for your new H14 Maxi square top main and "Blaster" furling headsail, please? This is a combo that seems to work (from my point of view 300 yards behind you). We might gain some insight from your successful experimentation.

Say, wouldn't your first set of rules for sail area (160 sq ft) have ruled out your own boat? (see attachment)

yes mr smarty pants...bobs maxi rig would have not fit the original rules.....the attempt was to start out slow and evolve the rules. Now, it seems best to open pandoras box, and see what comes out....So, as a challenge----instead of typing what ya do not like/ what ya like-----tell us what you intend on racing and when you will be on the start line. As for me...I will be out in the April 3/4 regatta in Ocean Springs Mississippi...with a h14 with way more sails................so, shut up and show up.tr

Sheesh, Terry, take your Prozac and lighten up. What did I say that seemed hostile or negative? I've raced against Bob's boat and was impressed and have said so several times. I was serious that Bob can offer us a professional sail designer’s guidance by telling us his about successful sail plan.

And it DOES seem odd that his first suggested rules would ban his own successful design.

You need to go sailing or kick your dog or something.

yea david, your right.....guess i was somewhat hostile and negative...my appologies...and actually, if we all think about it...the mast height will settle down (ie the As are unlimited and have all gotten within 6" of each other which works for that boat)....the super light weight boats will prob not hold up over the long run.....the sail area will settle down to what is managable, the max width will prob be back in the under 8' range....and if I was goin to spend 8 to 15k on a boat---Id prob just get an A.....so, once again...my appologies....lets just have fun...oh by the way...yes im in laka sailing DTs, and i do not own a dog.........terry

I hope nobody thinks I was asking for an "unlimited" sail plan. I like Mike Fahle's 150/150 proposal, and I agree with Terry's assertion that the rigs will likely move toward something similar over time (in my business, that's called convergent evolution). I think, though, that some of that process has already happened, and we should take advantage.

The only reson I proposed the 4.3 as the ouside of the box to begin with is that people are buying this inexpensive boat and racing it single handed without major modifications, though tweaks are encouraged. The Hobie 14 on the other hand, is something that has been purchased and overhauled/modified with a new squaretop and screecher to make it more fun, though not "class legal." I imagined the Formula 14 class would give that modification some creedance and viability.

"Unlimited" isn't much of a formula, but it's a place to start. I'd prefer the 150/150 rule, but I'm looking forward to being in the class instead of just outside it.

What a beautiful picture of the H14 "Maxi". It would be neat to see some H16 cross-beams installed to widen the boat some, and maybe some little trapezing racks?

So far... I'm waiting until Summer to build any boat. I'll gather up parts until then but here is my plan:

A pair of stressed-ply/fiberglass hulls. I still have the Quattro 14 plans coming, but am hoping the Blade 14 plans will become available before I begin building. Whatever I use, I'm going to cant them.

8' or 8'6" beams. Either salvaged off a P16 wreck on the beach, or from one of several broken mast sections that have been offered to me for this project.

24' mast. I like the old "10' longer than the boat" rule-of-thumb for beach cats. This seems to work well and I don't want a sky-high mast. Again, I'm hoping I'll be able to use a salvaged cut-down mast section from another boat.

Boom- highly likely I'll just use a salvaged H14 mast section and gooseneck. I'll run the main loose-footed and try to use something in the sail-trac for an outhaul.

Rudders- complete system salvaged off a TheMightyHobie18, but I'll need to buy new fiberglass blades and maybe extend the tiller if I go for the widest beam.

Sails- I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to afford new sails without selling my G-Cat to fund them...
However, I'd like to get a mainsail with as much sail area as possible without going to a gaff-rig I want to keep as much drive as possible after rolling up the headsail.
Speaking of headsails... I'd first like to try a giant roller-furling jib on a pole. Not a reacher but an actual jib- a headsail with use upwind. I'm unsure of whether to bring it aft of the mast or make it self-tacking. I'll do a lot of talking with sailmakers and racers before really deciding what to do up front. I definately want only one headsail.

So from what I'm seeing is folks are suggesting some limit on mast height and sail area. I tried 25 years ago a hobie 16 rig on the 14. That tall mast and huge mainsail sure looked fast and in theory should have been. But, mother physics came to play and all the boat could do was fly a hull and pitchpole! I'm gathering all this info for a vote on Thursday. It appears a max sailarea of 300 including m-j-sp or reacher and a 24'6" mast might be best. From my experience the taller the the mast and larger offwind headsail is not necessarily the fast way. The larger main and jib, especially the jib, worked the best. Also, the beam ideally will be under 8' but why limit someone's creativity? I would like to finalize and put some rules for our beginning on Saturday, Feb 14 so the tinkerers and others can begin modifying their boats for races beginning in April. Is there interest to show up at the Spring Fever as a class and score the M4.3s within and have this big class showing? It would also be easier to calculate a p/n for open class sailing.

Your thoughts everyone??

Bob

Just for everyones' info.

My 14 with sqtop and big reacher has a combined sailarea of 246sqft. This would allow me a 54sqft jib to make 300.

Bob

I think Nigel could be prevailed upon for that - start the F14s and other small boats together, split out scoring for whatever you want within that start. We had five or six 4.3s last year, so there's a F14 class start and trophies right there. Get Terry up for it and bring your Max... who else would be an F14? I sent the registration notice to the 4.3 class this past weekend - I'll drop Mr. Ernie an e-mail and let him know we're going to try and have this F14 thing, too.

Yehaw - three more weekends of race committee and I get to sail again!!!

Bob,

I think a 300 sqft limit sounds like a good starting point...although I still have visions of a mast head chute and the boat riding bow high like a skiff!

I also agree that the boats will probably come to a width under 8' - if you had a 14' boat that's 10' wide it would pitchpole Loooooong before a hull lifted off the water.

Sounds like a great start - I can't wait to join you (but it will be a while for me).

Please don't limit beam. I'm begging. I'm being nice, which is very hard for me. The beam is the only way to get enough horsepower to escape an expensive complex compound curve hull shape, and be able to spend the money on innovations to overcome pitching, instead.

I am with David...no beam limit...if someone wants to put up with assembling/disassembling their boat or trailering it on a tilt trailer let them.

But remember David, that a 14' cat with 8'-6" beam is an equal ratio to Bill Roberts 20' X 12' Supercat. That is Beam would be = to 60% of the length. Already a healthy beam if the non-US sailors don't try and gnaw away at it to meet their highway trailering limits. They could always build theirs to 2.5 meters instead...many sailors are already talking about making theirs less than 8’. Let everyone have what they want…choices…a good thing.

Just like the mast height/sail size…it will shake it self out…If someone shows up with a 10’ wide boat and it does little to add to the on the water performance they will narrow up the beam just to make trailering easier.…Two cuts with a chop saw, drill four holes, remove the panel they put in to expand the tramp...and whala...back to trailerable width in an afternoon...no harm, no foul....

Outside of a specifically “home built” designs, or a SC 15 with a foot loped off of the stern, I don’t see too many boats having any advantage to going beyond 8’-6” beam, they don’t have enough volume in the bows to handle it…but if they want to try, why stop them? With small Frankenstein boats that are easily, and relatively inexpensively modified, we might finally be able to put some actual evidence behind the theories we endlessly argue here on the forum…

Bob

Want to re-iterate the rigging time criteria of 20 minutes. This stops unmarketable, enthusiasm sapping boats being developed. It is good for the sport, and a worthwhile engineering challenge. No equipment needed to check. You qualify when you set up, if someone challenges you. What you think? (people under 100lb and over 300lb get an extra five minutes)

Not in 20, or even 25 minutes. Not with the snuffer, the beer cooler, the spin up, back to the beer cooler, snuff the spin while spraying with sailkote, back to the beer cooler, fool with the radio, up with the jib, trip to the garbage with empties, hey where'd all my beer go?

Seriously, I've never timed myself, but that would be a tough criteria for me to meet.

David,

Who would regulate the 20 minute rigging time at the regatta site? Like John, I like to take my time and throw back a couple when rigging. Lord have mercy on me - for safety's sake on the water, I don't need to try and do this under the gun. And even then, what's to stop me from mounting a pneumatic mast stepping modulator on top of my RV giving me an unfair rigging advantage?

Hi Dav -Hi Jake

may just sail to the regtta site ?

It should be a fun class ,and great fun to experiment a little with design ideas and concepts added.

The 18 sq meter class ,a few decades old with class specs.and rules of 18 ft L 193 sq ft sail -no min weight ,-and no max beam -,-was the only one with unlimited beam .

What some of the builders discovered in that size range was a point of diminishing returns . The added stress on the crossbeam -its connection ,-dolphin striker assembley - etc all had to be reinforced and extra weight added with increased beam .
Also the narrower beam cat designs generall 10 to 11 ft that flew a hull earlier were at a distict advantage in the mid range windspeed conditions the vast majority of races are held in as they flew a hull as the wide beams sat both hulls in being heavier to boot.
That places the 14 ft 8,5 beam spec in similar length to beam ratio ranges as the 18 sq s .
-Also ,as Phyc earlier noted ,-calculate the volume in the hull forward of the crossbeam { forces forward in downwind mode} as compared to the wide beam leverage and full volume and sailing forces in {upwind mode] --again a point of diminishing returns ,-a large rig and sailplan simply submerge the bows sooner ,evan though wide beam will carry it upwind.
The only option is a much lower total rig C E sail plan solution ,--2 masts per 60 parlier with larger beam to L ratio ,-but a whole series of other related problems like mast moment ,-racking stresses ,-rigging ,--taCking -gIbing the headsail etc become a problem .
cat ,http://www.parlier.org/site02/accueil/1024x768.html

The option of a lifting sailplan with lots of luff angle in extreme mast rake or like a lateen rig {sunfish } type main may potentially reduce the sail forces forwrd .
For the headsail an extended spin pole way ahead of bows for spin luff angle and lift ,--but then CE to CLR -balance and helm control becomes the main problem ,

A very wide flat planning type hull and bow sections are another solution ,-hull shapes could resemble a flat bottom skiff that has uniform hull width and no compound curves ,-it just uses a flat bottom radius forward of mid hull up to deck level at the bow ,--what could be easier to build from ply wd.
Just wanted to draw you out a little in the concept of a wide beam F-14 -beyond 8.6
Sounds like an interesting design , suggest a model first ,
best regards

Not every time!
Be like weighing in. If there is an objection, the committee can time you. Beats weighing in etc, an is a valid criteria which ensures the appeal of sailing. Most people I know that didnt like sailing stated "it is too much work".
The "safety issue" is pretty lame. Usually you forget something because you got sidetracked and missed a step. (I can here it now -"It wasn't the six beers, it was the six distractions")
Actually, I'm up on the vectors and moments. I just want to be able to do my thing, and have a fertile imagination. Once again, if beam is not a solution to speed, why worry about limiting it? Stay with the mission statement of the class.
"To boldly go where no man has gone before, and bring the family"

David I was all for standing with you when you wanted unlimited beam...but this 20 min thing is out there.
Remember, this class is all about "fun." Setting up under the gun sounds a lot like work and very little like "fun" to me...just another rule to get bogged down in....Let it go...LOL

Bob

The pneumatic mast stepping modulator??? You wouldn't DARE!

Whaaatt? Got a problem with it!? Be careful because I might just "blow up the Earth".

Bob,
I must say you have hit it on the head.
The rigging of a boat can be quite a social occassion.
Usually takes twice as long as needed, not because the boats are that hard to rig but because of all the talking that goes on between rival crews. At least that is the way of it at my club.
This brings up an novel article I read in an old Paper Tiger Newsletter. They posed the question.
"Are Beach Wheels in the interest of the sport?"
The issue was the beach wheels meant fellow Paper Tiger sailors didn't need each others help to get the boats in and out of the water and that could impact on the social side of the sport.
After all - don't we use the race as an excuse to Sail and Socialise.

OK
I'll drop the 'rect-o-race theme. I just think the relationship between rigging time and Portsmouth # is interesting. By the way, the fastest mast stepper is a person.

All for it Dav ,--good attitude and spirit -but

Some would argue the intent of a 14 class would be to provide good fun class racing ,--so a {class} of reasonabley equal boat types must be defined -
that is generally through the language of design measurement --basic box measurements of L B W & Sail area

Where to limit and HOW TO define?

Many think the ideal class would only set a limit on a certain sail area .---anything goes under that --cat -tri --4 hulls --proas -- foilers ---wing sails ---multiple wing spinakker kites --etc --
lots of great ones here http://www.ayrs.org/

This becomes a wide open developmental class mainly for sponsored teams that can develop and build wing sails and foils --
So limits are established --14 L -etc --
where and to what extent to define a {class}?
no one will ever get a unanimus concensis --
{much like the U N}

I,m for an "Open 14 rule" --no limits just 14.3 L
AS a sub class within the F-14 class

Think the main interest and numbers will take numerous existing good boats --Mystere 4,3 H-14s -etc and want to inexpensively modify them and add a hooter spin snuffer and just race and have fun . THIS SHOULD BE THE MAIN fORMULA 14 CLASS based on current production boat specs per Mystere 4.3 or a liitle beyond as per min weight --max sail area--
etc -
then an OPEN sub class category for any 14 not meeting those basic specs,

Beyond the 14 class ---however finally defined ,--
there are14 -- 16 --18 ---someday 20 --and other potential classes ---
The 18 sq meter class --single handed -no restriction on beam ,-is a good candidate for resurection ,by adding a spin snuffer and new basic specs and rules -
Your correct ,--there should be a class designated that is purely OPEN -to innovation and develop new concepts in --
set a length and sail area -limit wings to C Class -
but anything else goes --There is a thread on 18 sq on the new forum --Majsteve is building one w spin per description
http://www.catsailor.com/forums/sho...ew=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1

One consideration in finalizing this proposed 14 class will be how it can best serve the sport in larger context and how it relates in the larger scheme of class organizations ---It should attempt to include all 14 types of cat designs within -- 2 categories seem to be needed.

Sail6000, while I do whole-heartedly agree with you that two divisions of this class may be the best way to keep the wildly different eras/designs from having to compete with each other, I think that is something that can wait until this class is truely established. I think you'll find the vast majority of the F14 class will be made of just these boats you speak of, especially this early in it's conception.

First, let's find out how those H14Ms really compare against the Mysteres, Waves, Tracs, and (evenutally) Blades. When we have a good variety of boats competeing on the same course we'll really be able to see where the "dividing line" might lie. Then we as a class of F14 sailors can bring up the debate of wether or not to race with divisions and if so, what those divisions should be.

Another thought is personal handicapping. Where the skipper earns a handicap rating due his skill level. I have heard of this system being used by some yacht clubs but have no first-hand experience with it.

Either way, I'd really like to see all F14s share the same start and race as one class, eventually with different trophies awarded in each division.

EXACTLY!!

Bob

Hey, that's an interesting idea...personal handicaps kinda like golf or bowling! Geeze...how would that work? With golf and bowling the course/lane is pretty standard and that is used as the basis for the handicap. We couldn't possibly expect to set up standard course length, wave/chop, and wind! I suppose it would have to be a system based on sailor against sailor but it would have a tough time applying evenly over a large region where different groups of sailors sail against each other regularly (perhaps that's not important!).

Hi Bob hi Brian
really good thoughts Brian ,-agree

though forsee the need for a min boat weight for production boats in a seperate class category ,---How hard is this to add really? --All start and race together ,you just designate the heavier production boats and give em trophies too --

Alternatively -It might just be noted as a consideration for next season after racing gets established ,--then again many may deem it much more fair and modify their production boat for that reason . If a lightweight flyer dominates racing it will discourage others with production boats ,--again these exist in large numbers ,can be modified inexpensively ,and really should be the priority and focus of the class .--Fast fun inexpensive racing for all .

Include the fun innovators and home builders in a more open class 14 category ,-all racing together from the same start ,-- The logos look great ,by the way ,--a nice bright color so the RC can easily spot F-14s when finishing , and a 24 inch sq decall made available ,-up Bob,s alley as sail loft .
Back to the boat weight 2 category idea--
I can not see competing with a 100 Lb lighter boat in the same {class} ,-though someone like Bob is very capable of taking a modified { though 100Lb heavier } H -14 and winning easily due to the human element and sailing ability.

Do like the individual handicap idea ,though generally applied and ajusted in local group racing ,--after you win one of handicap your allowed handicap is moved up enough so another wins ,--by the end of the season everyone wins one !! nice way to encourage new and youth sailors into a local club or the Wed evening series .

The 2 category concept can be implimented anytime .

Sounds like a good 14 ft cat design .
The fold up plywd method always makes fast rounded V shaped hulls no matter how you cut the outline and fold em up , though they will not lend themselves to any flatter fuller hull section shapes ,--in a 14 with fold up plywd. the designer must leave in a fairly wide deck to create enough volume to support boat and crew weight plus sail forces ,--more w spin ,on the bows particularly.

Built a fold-up and also a 20 cat using the stringer frame method ,-wanted flat hull sections and added volume forward .

With current 14 rules as proposed --no beam limit ,300 sq ft any configuration sail -24 mast , --hmmm
a mini 60 ft foiler tri ? scaled to 14.3 L 14 beam -
http://www.latitude38.com/LectronicLat/2003/0503/May16/banquepop002.jpg

Could just use a shortened center H 18 hull with two lightweight amas and angled foils molded in near the bows ,
to carry a large mast head hooter on a furler upwind and down ,--
hmmmm -- 300 sq ft is more than the I 20 main and jib !!

maybe 2 classes will be needed .

Marv should be in the class logo somewhere
kindof a symbolic inspirational figure -

If we can put Rovers on Mars -
CHANCES are we can start a F-14 class !!

First Earth blocks his view of Venus ,
now those pesky Mars rovers are all over the planet !
http://www.gargaro.com/images/MarsLanding.jpg

Jake,
I don't expect what I'm about to propose will ever come about but what the heck it's a lot of fun.

In fact some of the most fun I've every had sailing is when we do boat handicappng.

We run a short race and from that race we developed a handicap.
Now instead of the handicap staying with the skipper it was given to the boat. So now you have the relative speed the owner(someone who knows the boat intimately) can get it around the race course.

Then everyone swaps boats and they have to outsail the handicap developed by the owners race.

When we sawap again for the next race and still you are sailing with the handicap the owner established.

At the end of the day (after 7 races) the best sailor, not the best boat wins.

It is an awful lot of fun when we do it as we all enjoy the clowning around between races as well as during them.
It's not for everyone some people still think we're sailing for sheep stations.

Just for fun.

Phill