I read about a lot of "ideas" for the design of F14's in these pages, but who out there is actually going to build/convert a F14 cat, and who's just talking for the sake of talking?
Darryl J Barrett

Come on people, don't be shy! lets hear if you are really in or not??
Personally, We are only about 8 to 9 weeks away from putting our first f14 on the water in it's final "production" condition. We have already trialed it for over two full years in it's development stage, during which it way exceeded our own expectations
Darryl J Barrett.

How about some specs on the new boat.
Bern

Berny, I will post some of the specifications tomorrow at work (Saturday morning 28th), but I would realy like to add some photo's. which at this time I am finding difficult to convert into a file that is acceptable to this forum?? It keeps telling me "unacceptable photo" and other unacceptable reasons, but I'll work it out when I have more time to "read the instructions"
Darryl J Barrett

Make sure that the pics are smaller than 100 kb

Best is to make them smaller than 98 kb than you are certain that any .gif .jpg .jpeg and .txt will be accepted.

Wouter

Thank's Wouter, but I am still having broblems! even when I try to edit my "profile" window. If I just open it and don't even make any changes, then submit it, it comes up with "improper photo type", (even if I haven't made any changes at all)??????
darryl J Barrett.

Thanks for the interest Berny,
The basic dimensions are:
L.O.A. 4.3m
Max' beam 2.2m
Max' mast height 7.8m (although the actual mast is slightly less to allow for variations in the height of the mast base above the front beam)
Max' sail area (main sail no jib) 12.2 sqm (including half the mast area bounded by the sail luff length) (sails by Geof Adams in NSW)
Actual main sail area 12sqm
Spinnaker, flat, assymetric - tack sheeted at the front of the spinnaker pole, head attached to halyard fitted at the mast at 0.175m above the hounds
Two main cross beams, the forward one set at fore and aft centre of the hulls.
high aspect dagger boards and rudders.
Standard with one set of trapeze (provision for another set to be swung for a crew, if so desired)
The mast, beams, boom, and spinnaker pole are all carbon fibre, manufactured by "Applied Composite Technologies" in Melbourne, and the mast section is the same one that Boyer and Goodall use for "A" class cats.
The hulls are layer up with, gel coat,one laminate of 100 gm/sqm CSM, a laminate of carbon fibre, one laminate of 8mm thick, 130KG/sqm divinacell foam, and a laminate of carbon fibre. The resin is vynalester.
We look at putting them on the water, complete and ready to race at about A$10,500 plus GST.
Darryl J Barrett.

Hi Darryl, We will have a comparison of modified and stock production boats here in the U.S. in early April at the Spring Fever reagatta in Georgia. A new, completely "accessorized" Mystere 4.3 w/ spinnaker and snuffer is just $4500 U.S. again this year. It is probably the fastest 14 foot production cat and certainly the best value. With around fifty of them in the U.S. now we will have a one design class as well.

Good luck with your new boat - it sounds like it will be fast and fun. Is there other interest down-under in the F-14 class?

Mike

Hi Mike, isn't it the middle of the night there?? can't you sleep??
There a a lot of potentual f14's throughout Australia,Mike, for many years they were sold in the largest numbers of all cats (before the economic downturn throughout the 80's and 90's) and many of the production 14' cats could be quite easily converted to be quite competative as f14's, But as to interest in F14's in Australia goes, the sailors here are generally a very laid back type of character who doesn't get out there and "talk" publicly about his sailing, (although get him in a group of sailors with a few beers and you can't shut him up untill he's solved all the problems of the world) and as such, the only real way of assessing the potentual of F14's is to actually put one out there, compete with it at all the majour events that you can and see how many you can sell. That's about the only way I know of truly finding out just how much "real" interest there is on the subject. Thats what we hope to do over the next couple of years, advertise nationally and compete where ever we can ( or where ever we can best be seen)
Darryl J Barrett

Hi Darryl

Some of us here in the W hemisphere are in the middle of winter looking out at snow and frozen lakes ,-so all we can do is talk {or write} sailing ,-
Am planning a modified production Formula 14 ,--to answer directly ,-and would really enjoy building another cat ,-
most likely a fold up plywd hull version.,though this time with my boys .
I am curious about F-14 class development -
suppose it will settle itself out ,-but investing in someting new always has some risks ,--kindof like being the first new home built in a new area ,--not sure of what else will eventually be in the development around you -

The concept of a production class category and min weight per boat typical specs should be reassuring as to Formula class , but can evolve as needed.

The F-14 class may eventually have thousands within internationally .


a list of potential production class F-14s

Mystere4.3 http://www.cat-alist.com/headlines/mystere4_3.htm

Trac 14 -windrush 14 http://www.yachte.com.au/classes/windrush.asp

Hobie 14 -http://www.thebeachcats.com/print.php?sid=84
tuning guide by Bob

Hobie Wave http://www.nahca.org/hobies/hobie_wave_specifications.htm

Hobie 14 turbo -
Specifications
Length 14'
Beam 7' 8"
Draft 8"
Mast Length 22'
Sail Area 118 sq. ft. Main / 30 sq. ft. jib
Maximum Load 500 lbs.
Hull Construction Fiberglass/Foam Sandwich
Designer Hobie Senior


Nacra 450 http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/nacra450.htm

Chesire 14 http://www.intl-fiberglass.com/cheshire.html


http://www.cat-alist.com/headlines/mystere4_3.htm
The Mystere 4.3
Mast length 23.6’
Boat length 14.1'
Boat beam 7.5'
Boat weight 240 lbs
Sail area: mainsail 129 sq ft
Sail area: jib 31 sq ft
Sail area: spinnaker 150 sq ft

POTENTIAL 15ft cats modified to 14.3

P-15 http://old.cruisingworld.com/ssbk/prind150.htm
8 IN taken off hull L

Supercat 15 -at 15.3 would require a ft taken off hull L .
w-305
L-15.3
B-8 ft
MAST 26 Ft.
Sail ar 160 main -
opt jib 49
non board type

sure there are several other 14s or potential F-14 conversion boats out there ,-plus the numerous home built versions of 14s .

The economics of getting into a 14 are great -
Numerous existing boats are out there and available to purchase for very little --
{purchased my SC 15 FOR 200} W trailer ,--
needed work cleaning parts and sails .
I can add a small 150 spin and make a spin pole snuffer all for under 1500 total --quite a value particularly if there is a good viable national Formula 14 class to race it in .
That is the great attraction to the class and another of several reasons why it may have thousands of members eventually .

good sailing
Carl

I will be building a F14 this summer! A Blade preferably, but if the plans aren't available by then, I'll build a Quattro 14. The Quattro is not the latest and greatest design, but it's lightweight and should be able to compete on a similar level as the H14s and Mystere 4.3s.

As an extra bonus, the F14s over here have the option of being up to 8'6" wide (~2.6M)

Darryl, thanks for the info and good luck with the boat. It sounds fast. I'd guess it's 'all up' weight at around 65kg (140lb) or lighter, right?.
I hope you have more success than I did with my 14. Two years in development and build, around $100,000 in costs, the thing goes like the clappers, is a pussy to sail, points as high as an NS14 and tacks like one too but no interest here. It'll be interesting to go head to head with you some time in the future probably at some midway location like Yarrawonga maybe.
Mate the Australian cat sailor is probably the most unsophisticated animal (I use the term with some affection) you could find and getting them to pay $1050 for a 14ftr isn't easy, never mind $10,500. Asside from the $$$$'s, the problem seems to be the lack of real competition. None of the existing 14's come within cooee of a decent 14ft performance catamaran and the Americans are going to find this out when someone turns up with a decent, sub. 150kg boat.
Like you, I did no market research because my heart said go for it and it seemed logical, but sadly all the guys are still sailing Maricats, Hobys, Windys, Tigers, Arrows, Mozzies etc. etc., boats they can buy for $1500. And as long as everyone is on similar performance boats it doesn't matter that some other thing is a shirtload quicker. The competition is there and that's what counts in the end. It's called 'one design'. It's probably fair to say it's the destroyer of, or at least a significant restriction to innovation.
Sorry mate but that's how I see it and I hope it's different for you. If you think I can help in any way at all, please let me know.
Bern

Use this link for Mystere 4.3 http://mystereowners.org/mystere The cat-alist page is dated.

Hi CARL.
WHATS SNOW? We sail 12 months of the year over here, the only difference between the two is a jumper (sweater) in the winter, and the winds are more constant then!
G'day BERNY. yes I know exactly what your saying, I went through it all in the 60's and then again in the 70's when "glass" started to take over from marine ply.There is always a "cultural" shock (money for sailors) immediately after an extended lull in the "new" boat market. It takes a while for sailors to adjust to the fact that to buy a new boat, when the second hand price has been so low for so long, that for all the time that the second hand market remained at the $1000 to $2000 mark for some 10 to 15 years, the costs of producing a new boat has been governed by the steadily increasing prices of material and labour. If you were to say to them that they could have the new boat for 1985 prices if they would work for 1985 wages they would think that you were stupid! Luckily I am not too disadvantaged by the "whims" of the average sailor when it comes to pricing. I have never treated the design and manufacture of cats as my "core" means of income, (GOD if any one did that they would have to be very very wealthy or crazy, or both), and as such I can afford to persevere and just keep plugging away until such time as the average sailor comes around to the realisation that "to get the thrills, they have to pay the price"
I have held back on the production and release of these cats now for over 6 years, for exactly those reasons - the market was recessive and there wasn't enough "disposable income" around to support an new cat/class, but as I said before, I feel that that has started to turn around. (historically when ever there has been a housing boom there has followed a boom in off the beach sailing) Keep that in mind Berny, and be prepared to try again with your 430 as a production if it looks like the market can accomadate it, you could be pleasantly surprised.
Darryl J Barrett

Hi Brian,
The "Blade" looks VERY good as an F16, I wasn't aware that they were doing it in a 14'? but if they do, their concepts of hull shape and bouancy spread a right up there with the best that Hydrodynamics can be applied to performance hulls.
Keep with it, I think you will be more that pleased if you get one on the water.
Darryl J Barrett

Berny,
I printed an error in the specifications of the 4.3 Alpha Omega the other day, the foam that we are using is 4mm thick, not 8mm, and the approx' sailing weight will be much closer to 100lb than 140lb.
It will be somewhere down to the weight of the old paper tiger in marine ply (or less) but even at that weight, with the laminates that we are using, and the internal structuring it's a very "tough" set of hulls that should remain competitive for many years of hard sailing. The most delicate component of the cat will be the mast. carbon fibre masts don't like impact, but to get the performance it is a necessity to use carbon fibre for the mast today, (besides, they are at least repairable if broken, unlike an aluminum mast). We have fould that we can't justify the purchase of aluminum mast any way! The way that "Capral" have dictated the means of their supply, makes it prohibative - to have one mast from them, we would have to take a full "production run" which would mean that we would have to carry in stock about 176 lengths (and that applies for any other sections that we would be using if we were to use aluminum)
Darryl J Barrett.

I think that in building a formula class like the F14, manufacturers would be best off to sell the boats in "kit" form. This method has been applied successfully by many other boat manufacturers, but never with beach cats to my knowlege.

You could sell just the hulls, and as many other parts as the customer could afford to buy/wanted to buy. The purchaser would then be responsible for fitting the boat out however they want. This would keep prices down, as the majority of the labor would be supplied by the consumer. The hulls are the only truely unique part of a boat, anyhow; everything else is interchangeable to one degree or another.

In this way, those H14 and Maricat sailors would be able to buy a new, high-performance set of hulls and transfer their current hardware onto the new platform. As parts wore out or their desire for performance increased, they would be able to purchase new parts actually designed for the new boat.

Ok so the boat will be very light. Vac. bagged I'm guessing. At that weight there will be few if any 14's that will go with it. I'd guess that only my 430 would even come close, I can't think of another boat except maybe the blade when it's available. Yes I know what you mean with masts but I was lucky in that I had a ready supply of old alum. 'A' sections (125x60) which I had chemically milled to a reasonable weight. There are only a few left now and I might need a good section to replace mine if this F14 thing ever gets going. What sort of money does your mast cost and what are the dimensions?
What we need is a national F14 assn. running a 14ft GP. Probably a big ask in this country with distances what they are. I tried to organise a State GP in 99/2000 giving the 14's their own course so they wouldn't have to contend with the demeaning and incessant procession of bigger boats passing them to windward during the race but it attracted almost no interest and the first host club pulled out 2 weeks prior. I was not impressed. Maybe it's worth another try.

99/2000 draft flyer:
announcing::
14FT (4.3M) NSW G.P. CIRCUIT
for
CATAMARANS
To be conducted at four separate venues, over the season ‘99/2000.
It is proposed that the series be run at:
GLSC Forster (6 races) October, 2nd - 4th
LMNCC Rathmines (5 races) in December, 4th and 5th
Koonawarra Bay S.C. (5 races) February 12th and 13th
Vincentia S.C. Jervis Bay (5 races) in April, 23rd - 25th [ANZAC]
21 races in total, with 15 to count. This means that three only of the four regattas will need to be contested for a competitor to have a chance of winning the series.
A presentation dinner soon after completion, at a venue to be nominated, would ad a fitting finale.
Anticipated categories will include:
O/A scratch winner, - O/A yardstick winner, - 1st in class, [five or more boats]
best Master (over 45), - best Junior. (under 16) and best Female.
Prize money in the vicinity of $500 ea. for scratch and y/s winners and $100ea. for other placings is considered appropriate with Entry fees of $160 for the full series or $45 per regatta depending on the level of participation.
Class Assns. could possibly use the series as their State Championships.
The purpose of the series is to:
provide quality racing for 14ft boats,
to bring together the boats in a mass fleet,
to encourage younger people to participate in catamaran racing and
to strengthen by promotion, the 14ft class Catamarans.
If other States can be encouraged to run a similar series it may be possible to select
State Teams to compete in a National 14ft Championship.
WE INVITE YOU TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS EXCITING SERIES
For further information please contact:
..................................
What do you think?
Bern

I think that it is an excellent idea BERNY, but I feel that the priority, at this time is to get the "numbers on the water". It doesn't matter where they sail, or whether they sail against standard 14' class's, or if they sail in open fleet, but they have to be seen, and seen with spinnakers as an exciting and viable way to go. when that happens the rest will follow. So keep your programing handy for when the time is ripe.
On another point Berny, yes I don't think that there will be another 14 ft cat that can come any where near our 4.3 - AT PRESENT - but thats why I think that the system that the F16 has would be good for the F14. I am refering to the "grandfather rule" where there is a class of F14 that consists of all production converted 14's that will race for, "across the line" against each other ( where they could be surprisingly of equal competitiveness over a series of different wind strengths and courses) this I think is vital to get, and keep existing owners of 14' cats interested, and an open F14 that will consist of " cats designed specifically to conform to the "new" F14 dimensions. How do you feel about that?
Darryl J Barrett

G'day BRIAN.
We actually do just that, ie make available to anyone who wants to put their own boat together, evey part of the cat from the hulls up. We have always sold cats that way, ever since the 1970's, but when our end product has been finished straight off the factory floor in full race tune and trim, we have never had a lot of takers. It seems that when push comes to shove most people like to buy the cat ready to race and not have to put in the hours chasing parts. Most times potentual customers have found that by the time they go out and pay full retail prices for fittings, sails, sheet lines, etc, they can't save themselves any money from what we supply ex factory (we do have a much better buying price from the suppliers than "retail"), and our fit out time is only a fraction of what it takes some one to fit out a cat themselves when they are doing it as a one off.
Darryl J Barrett