Eliptical hulls, in my opinion, would not have offered us much advantage off the beach - such as in the following image.

Hi Gang,
I came to multihulls after sailing monohulls for 25 years and winning ten US Nationals in three different classes. In the 1960s and 70s I lived on a freshwater lake where most of the sailing was done in my area and I was sailing monohulls, dinghys, at that time. I saw the beach cats when they first came out. I watched them turn over and stick their masts in the bottom of the lake. I watched them turnover and blow the length of the lake with a guy and his girlfriend hanging on a rope trying to right the boat with no success. I watched them try to tack and get in irons on a windy day and have to back the jib and make the boat back around moving backwards to complete the tack. I watched them pitchpole when they would attempt to go fast on a reach. During this time period two persons drowned on the lake where I lived from pitchpoled boats. I have scar tissue from these times. I can still hear the sherriff's helicopter going up and down the lake waiting on the body to float to the surface and the rotor making that whak, whak, whak sound all day long.
When I began to think seriously about designing a beach cat, I promised myself that I would design a boat that would be as pitchpole resistant as possible and the boat would be rightable by the person sailing the boat and it would tack well enough to excersize classical tactics sailing to windward.
Evidently it took a monohull sailor to be concerned about these things, these boat design safety issues, and basic sailing characteristics. Even to this day no other production beach cat comes with a built in righting system.
Safe Sailing,
Bill

I don't know how many times I have to say it Bill, but you simply cannot say that. Isotopes come with a righting pole from the factory. Just because you haven't heard of them or seen them en-masse doesn't mean that they aren't there, therefore your marketing claim that your boats are the ONLY production catamarans that come with a built in righting system simply isn't true.

ONE of the only perhaps, but not the only.

I have never thought that the problem with "righting" a capsized cat was the problem of the cat, but more so with the experience and knowledge of the crew! IF proper, simple, accurate, training/instruction is imparted to a crew before they sail then righting SHOULD never be a problem! There have been courses conducted here for over 35 years on how to right a capsized cat. If a cat has a mast length over a certain length, it is impossible for the crew of that boat to right it with just their own weight, the leverage of the mast exerts just too much "load" for them to counteract, BUT if there is enough wind to "blow" them over, then there is enough wind to "sail" them up right, if they are aware of how to use it. When a crew knows that they are ditching or have ditched their only concern, in the first instance, is to get themselves onto the hull in the water ASAP. forget all else. They then can, by holding onto the dolphin striker or righting rope (and every cat should have a righting rope under pain of death if they dont - no pun intended-), lean their weight out board. By just leaning a little beyond the vertical they will keep the boat in the 90 degree position indefinately and stop a 180 degree roll over. Then if the crew, holding the righting rope and letting out appropriate amounts to maintain their "just off vertical" stance, moves forward on the hull as far as they can (preferably at least to the forestay bridle point, they will depress the bow of the cat deeper into the water, (as a consequence the transom will lift quite considerably). The hull will then have much more resistance to the sides way movement created by the wind at the bow and conversly the stern will have little resistance to that same force. The result is that the stern will move off wind and the bow will move up to, and point into the wind. With the hull pointing into the wind the air flow over the sail/s and mast (the mast of course being only partially in the water as the mast step position is in the centre of the boat ) will generate enough lift to pick up the mast and sails and the boat will come to rest in an upright position facing head to wind and relatively stationary.
This is the method that has been taught to probably thousands of cat sailors here over many years and as a result there has never been a catamaran, racing fatality, due to ditching in that time.

On the contetious subject of curved fore decks versus flat (or close to flat) it is important to remember that the curved deck with the same diameter as the distance across the flat will have an appreciable greater surface area. We conducted practical testing on just this subject during a feasability study for a "little America's Cup Challenge" in the early 70's and our findings were that an almost flat fore deck shed water more efficiently than an eliptical deck for the same bow profile, BUt the difference was moderate to the point that other considerations would far outweigh any prefference for flat or curved. It really is a non arguable point for or against!

Tacking a cat. I don't know if Bill has ever interested himself in cats other than those in his immediate line of site. One example that I wrote to him about was concerning his assumption that his were the first off the beach production cats to be made without a dolphin striker. When I mentioned the "Hydra" he confessed that he had never heard of it, which I found as a little lacking as they were a relatively popular British boat that achieved good export sales. and then there is the Australian Windrush 14 (I believe it goes by a different name in the USA), sold thousands since the mid 70's and still sells well, a centreboardless boat raced in large numbers, and it came out without a dolphin striker. So when he makes a sweeping statement in reference to catamarans that "could not tack" before his designs, I am forced to question his actual knowledge on the subject. Ever since the 60's there have been many classes of cats of all sizes racing in Australia that "tack as good as or better than mono hulls". There are several classes designed by the Cunninghams (perhaps you have heard of them, - they won several Little America's cup challenges -, that have been competing and still are competitive with almost any latter designs, then there is the Mosquito, the Cobra, the 18' Stingray,the Paper Tiger, the Arrow, the Arafura Cadet, The Dolphin, The Solo 16, and believe me these are but a few. These cats all sail very high to windward and tack up the beat on small knocks to advantage, they all race like thoroughbreds that defy any thing that Bill says to the contrary, and all of them were designed, built and had large fleets sailing every weekend at clubs all round Australia when Bill was still sailing in relatively slow monomarans

Oh and by the way, the Hobie 14 came out in its original form without a dolphin striker! Surely you saw that one Bill?

few of the cats had dolphinstrikers in the 60's.
shearwater, shark, and h14 are examples of strikerless.
to me the pitchpole-ability of h16 is a challenge more than a flaw. We sailed off the wind in a gail coming into hatteras during a worrell once on a h16 without pitching. There have been numerous h16 worlds heats held in winds above 25 kts. and the leaders don't tip over. also the raised trampoline is an asset in the sense that the sailors are up higher off the water, and are more comfortable sailing in rough seas.
on the subject of drowning: one word- lifejacket

i don't know about having a mast with holes top and btm.
Does anyone else think it's a good idea? Hobie14 in '68 was the first boat i sailed with a sealed mast. Granted some of them leaked, but they weren't meant to.
i was thinking of making a foam core composite mast. that certainly wouldn't fill with water if the proper foam was used. it seems i have the technology but not the time to develope it though.
cheers

Bill, Mr. Roberts,

When you say that no other cat comes with a righting system, you need to include all catamarans, including your own designs. Supercats do not come with a righting system.

Only a well prepared sailor can right the capsized catamaran. That is same sailor who created the circumstances leading to a capsize.

Catamarans are a vessel that are sailed with active cantilevered ballast. Active, moving around, and cantilevered, on a trapeze wire. Without the active ballast, the non-ballasted boats can not stay upright, beyond a certain wind speed.

Just as soon as the active ballast can not prevent capsize, the same active ballast (the sailors of the craft) must actively correct the capsize.

There is no system on any of the beachcats that can right the capsize without the active participation of the crew, the active ballast. That is the same person who caused the capsize.

There are many aides that a catamaran crew may use to right his capsized catamaran. Without the active participation of the crew, the capsized catamaran does not become un-capsized. (righted)

You, nor anyone, sells a catamaran that includes a crew who is able to right the capsized craft. Therefore, nobody, even you, has produced a catamaran that includes a means to right the capsized craft.

Furthermore.. I must express my objection to your email letter to me, five years ago, stating that every Supercat ever sold came with a one man righting system.

I have had correspondence with more than one Supercat sailors who were not able to right the Superheat 17 without some outside assistance, even after several repeated attempts.

My point here is that there is no beachcat (a cantilevered ballasted sailboat that does not use static, below the water surface, ballast weight) that can be righted without the active participation of some interested people. No tools will do the job if there is not present, the proper interested people.

Locally here in So. CA, we have a fleet of catamarans that sail to the Island of Catalina. The only cat sailor who has not been able to make the trip, owns a Superheat 19.

He has not been able to make the trip because he is not able to right his boat from a capsize unless he has a crew of three, aboard. THREE!

I would like to add to my comments that I really enjoy reading all of your knowledge filled posts. Also, I really love Supercats, especially the Supercat 17.

I, like so many here, look forward to your posts, intellignet comments, and wisdom. Thank you for all your past, as well as your present and future contributions.

GARY

Hi all,
Just my thoughts on this one :
Have to agree with Darryl, in that it takes proper technique to right a cat successfully.
Ask me, I know - I capsize often. 5 times in 2 races at Nationals, 3 times in 2 races at our solo champs, and once between races just for good measure.
No, I`m not a crap sailor, I`m just getting to grips with wild-thing downwind with the kite up, and if you`re sailing on the edge, you`re gonna go over once in a while.
The trick is in not worrying about it - IF you can right your boat. After 2 capsizes I was only 200m behind the fleet, and went completely turtle both times.
Here`s how to do it :

- Sail a boat you can right. What I mean is that I couldn`t right a Dart 18 on my own, I`m too light. This was one of the deciding factors in selling the boat & getting something that I can right on my own - you can`t sail something solo if you can`t right it solo.
- The moment you have to design paddles or lever-arms that you can get out on the end of to right the boat, you are sailing a boat that wasn`t designed for your weight, or was badly designed. Try standing on a pole 2ft away from your hull in 3-4m swell & strong wind. It`s hard enough staying with the boat, never mind fiddling with odd contraptions.
- Make sure your mast is sealed. If it is, it acts as positive bouyancy when turtle & actually contributes to the righting process. If it isn`t, it acts as ballast 30ft below your boat. Even if you get it back on it`s side, that`s as far as you`ll get it.

In my mind, you should only sail a boat solo if your weight exceeds the minimum weight required to right the boat.
And go out there & practice a LOT!! (like me )

Cheers
Steve

Firstly,

Why do people constantly change the title of discussion threads. The makes it very difficult to follow the thread via the 'posts in the last 24 Hrs' button at the bottom of the front screen.

Surely, if your comments are not relevant to the title you should start another thread. Thread titles are surely chosen by the originator of the thread to identify what they want to talk about.

Secondly regarding comments above about capsizing, pitch-poling etc.

If you are trying hard and pushing the envelope, you are going to swim every now and then.

If you are sailing a cat you will pitch-pole at some point what ever the design - unless it is TOTALLAY under canvassed or 'over length' for the canvas. Live with it.

If it is windy and you do not think you are up to sailing in the conditions, do not go out - Take responsibility for your own destiny. If you are not sufficiently skilled to sail the boat, buy a lower performance boat !

Hi Jake,
When I talk about eliptical hulls and safety and reduced pitchpole tendency, I am really only addressing the topside of the boat, the deck. Boats pitchpole at speed as you know. The boats in this picture are certainly not "at speed" and pitchpole is not a consideration. I don't know where you are coming from, Jake.
The second boat from the left is certainly getting its decks pounded and flat decks are certainly much higher drag than round decks from water crashing down on them moving in the vertical direction. The sailors on the third boat from the left are too far aft on their boat and this makes the boat stand on its transom as the wave passes. They are lucky they didn't get washed back to the beach.
Bill

Hi Darryl,
The important thing about the high crown foredeck vs a flat foredeck is the hull's drag coefficient when the foredeck is pushed underwater at high speed. This is also a much more important consideration when considering a boat for the general public vs a Little Americas Cup boat.The Little Americas Cup caliber sailors can handle any foredeck shape, no problem. The place where the foredeck shape and pitchpole characteristics become important is on a boat to be sold to the general public and to inexperienced sailors. Sailors where "to pitchpole" is a total surprise and they did not see it coming. People can be injured in this situation.
Bill

I agree the sailors on the boat were too far back - I am the one, not visible, under the crashing wave. However, we were in this position because the 6.0 to our left had rounded us up almost into irons and I was trying to fend off the boat to avoid damage. We did end up having to come back to the beach because we were eventually pushed head to wind.

The comment I made regarding eliptical hulls was in response to where someone made a claim that this shape aids in getting through the surf.

Luiz,

Selftacking jibs try early 1800 on traditional Dutch working sail boats. The originals that gave the US scow its name. But I bet it is even older than that. Any these used a curve steel bar over which a large ring could slide. On the ring was a large block that lead the jibsheet that came from the bow to the clew. In practice it is identical to the system now used on cats.

Wouter

>>I thought you had probably read that yourself.

No I hadn't.

>>As far as addressing your other comments...you know where I stand, and I know where you stand on these issues...lets just agree to disagree.

That is alright. I don't have a problem with Bill designs, I'm still looking to get a ride on that RC27 some day that is parked next to our club. No problem there. I'm only reacting to comments that go along the lines of "every other designer is misguided as the right solution is Bills design such and such."



>>I was trying to give the original poster the information he requested...that is, identifying catamaran design problems and their possible solutions. Since Bill Roberts has spent pretty much his whole catamaran design career on this very topic, I thought it would be very informative to do a bit of research on Bill's design history.


Well in that I agree. To a point I must add as sometimes Bill makes a claim that is not realistic. getting Massive leehelm under spi is one example. This may have been true in the past, I don't know, but it isn't now.


>>>With all do respect, until you put in some time on one of his designs (with it properly set up) you may never fully appreciate his genius.

I'm not coming into this unknowlegdable. I know of the attractions of a supercat and of its downsides.

Wouter

This thing about righting a cat illustrates that, from these postings, not enough people sailing on cats are fully aware of the proper techniques to right one that has ditched! As I described in my earlier post, ANY off the beach cat, (at least up to the size of a Tornado) can be righted quite quickly and safely by ONLY ONE PERSON, if the method that I described is followed! You do not "pull" a Cat up, you use the wind that has knocked you over to "sail" the cat into the upright position. It is efficient and leaves the crew in a much more physically competent way (they are not exhausted) than they were when they went into the water.
On the subject of "fully vented masts", at the head and at the base, sure when the head of the mast hits the water it will start to fill BUT, the surface of the water in the mast will always only remain at the level of the surface of the surrounding water, and water in water weighs nothing in relation to the crew trying to right it, the weight of water in the mast only effects the crew when it is contained and lifted free of the surounding water, and this means that the only weight that has to be supported by the crew is the actual weight of the mast. With the crew supporting the cat in the 90 degree position by "leaning" out on a righting rope they can easily support that weight, and the mast being in the position that the head is lower than the base (the base being above the water level as it is positioned in the centre of the cat which is half the beam of the cat above the water) allows, any water in the mast to flow out the head,IF THE BASE IS ALSO VENTED, so that there is no "suction" trying to impede that water flow. By having both head and base vented, the mast, in any attitude above water, will never hold water, and that can often be the main problem with "SEALED" masts. It is very rare that a so called "sealed" mast ever remains sealed for any length of time. The biggest problem is that every fitting and hole that is attached to or drilled into a mast, has to be sealed and by the nature of attaching two different types of material together, then trying to seal them with a third "compound" is fraught with the possibility (usually fact) that due to the different linear coefficient of expansion of different materials, that seal will not remain intact. once the integrety of the seal on any of the entrys to the mast are compromised, then, when the mast is submerged water will be forced into the mast under pressure, BUT when that pressure is removed (the mast comes out of the water) that water will either not drain from the mast or else it will drain very very slowly making the mast many times it's own weight.

Bill, our findings were that the difference between cambered fore decks and or flat fore decks, even "at speed", (as you say) and also when driven under water, were so miniscule to the point that there could not be ANY "noticable" difference to the performance of a cat using either.

Besides fellas, you are out on the water SAILING1 for gods sake! Of course you are going to go for a swim now and then, if you didn't, there wouldn't be much point in being out there any way? What next, do we encase all sailors on a water tight "suvival pod" so that we don't even get wet at all? and if we did, we would float away from the "boat" and be picked up by a rescue boat? all the time remaining "dry"? come on now. The difference between cats "pitchpoling" and "falling over sides ways" UNSAFELY" and dingy's being inherently safer, is a load of codswallup and myth! How many cat sailors have seen 9 to 12 year old "kids" out sailing/training in little "bath tubs" that regularly capsize , fill with water and have to be "assisted" by rescue crews? How many times have you seem classes of different dingys racing in heavy weather and the occasional boat being washed up on the shore because the crew could not right it and/or bail out the water? It seems to be a common occurence at all the clubs that I sail at that more rescues are made on dingies than on cats. At least the cats "float" when they ditch (unless punctured by collision) where as most of the dingies "swamp".

I don't agree on venting the mast on the top. I do agree on venting on the bottom. But I can sure underline the fact that the mono's are worse to right than a cat. My experience includes ; 49-er, laser 2000, laser 3000, laser 4000 and laser 5000. The laser 1 was very easy to right if you're quick enough to immediately step on the daggerboard in a capsize. I never capsized a laser 2. Besides all of these have "double vented" mast and I hate that with a passion. on the 49-er it takes ages for the water to run back out. If only they had sealed the top of the mast so that it would not fill with water to begin with.

Wouter