>>The Spotfire is also 'only' 16 feet - whick is a bit shor for carrying that much sail on your own.


That is bloody nonsense. Now, I've been around and did my rides on the 17 and 18 footers including the singlehanders. Now I have my "short hulled" 16 footer and I can tell you in all honesty that my current high speed F16 is more stabil than several longer hulled boats including the 17 foot singlehanders. I dared not dream that when I was building it, I admit, but it is the truth just the same.

I put it down to several factors the most important ones in my view are

-1- It is a low drag design ergo you trim for low aerodynamic drag of your rig. This means that all the sailforces are relatively small as well. I have a strong feeling that the sailforces are disporportionally smaller than the hulls or the volume distribution and hence you'll feel that as stability.

-2- The mast and sail combo is just alot lighter than the other alu masted singlehanders and even some carbon masted singlehanders. If you look at the Taipan bows you won't see alot of bouancy there HOWEVER you don't need it ! I sailed her right on the edge a few times already in strong conditions and even in flat water with strong winds. Trully and I swear to God, she has a beautify although rarely encountered dive recovery. Most of the time you don't notice a thing, the rounded decks and fared mainbeam take care of that. Only when the meanbeam between the hulls hits the watersurface then you'll start to decellerate in any significant sense. BUT, she stays level, I've yet to get her bows further down then about 200 mm and that was a very big try with a full stop. She just doesn't want to furher. Really the next second the bow pops out again and the starts accelleratign away. A trully weird sensation.

To give you another example. She recovers so quickly that when I was indeed pushed off balance and "running" forward she popped up so quickly that the decelleration had a stopped before I passed the main beam. I continue towards the bridles and I thought that as I was in totally the wrong place to prevent the next wave from tipping the balance and that it would only be a matter of time. But as soon as teh bows popped out and I was still closing in on the bridles she accellerated away and I was sort of swung back by to my proper position.

I've sailed singlehanded on a whole series of cats and this "shorter" hulled boat is (by far) the best. I have yet to sail the A-cat and that is really the only one I expect to be better.

Pardon my French here but you guys are like men who determine manhood using a tape measurer while we all know that it is the way you wield it that makes the ladies wild.

Don't knock the short hulled 16 footers until you tried them. These are no run of mill boats and you'll be very surprised when you either sail them or sail against them. Short hulled is a meaningless factor without looking at the overall balance of a boat and Taipan + F16's have got it right. In addition I know that the Spitfire has created more than a few upsets among the big boats (long hulled) as they are incredibally difficult to beat in pretty much all conditions. Well you don't do that with a unbalanced baot as you are suggesting by calling it short hulled. I have yet to see any 17 foot boat (not counting the ARC 17, Bill) do that !

If you don't believe me than for example, look up the Carnac results for the last years.

I'm on a roll here so bear with me while I'll "insult" some more people (joke)

But seriously guys, It takes more than a name change or a rip off of an succesful A-cat hull shape to make a good boat or a good singlehander. I understand it is very tempting to write off independent boat designs like the Spitfire or the Taipan using some soundbites. Fragile, short hulled, no dealorsupport. But lets face it; we've been sailing through rough patches of water for years now and there are still no stories of breakages. We may have less hull length than conventional wisedom requires but we also did better in races than all others. And with respect to the third point, I don't need some guy holding my hand on the beach before I go sailing. What I need is a good dependable boat with a feel to it that is reflective of its costs. And then when I do break something because of bad luck I want to have replacement parts. Currently I find that FEDEX-ing them in from the factory is WAY cheaper and not much slower. To give an example Big builder alu ruddercasting 350 Euro's per piece. Full carbon AHPC rudderstock that includes the tiller arm 180 Euro's per piece including international shipping and taxes. Now I don't know about you but I'll a week for a part if that saves me some 170 bucks. Hell for these prices I can even stock some replacement parts myself.


So again I say please come join us in a open cirquit where we pitch eachother boats against one another and have fun. First in wins ! And don't say you think this to be unfair because were are short hulled for the amount of sailarea we have. Not to mention fragile and stuff.

I find it really funny to see the differences between what is said publically and what is done privately. During the DCC's ending we were sailing at the westland CUP regatta in a fleet of unmeasured F18's F20's, FX-one and I-17's. After the first two races several boats sailed over the to the F16's and inquired what kind of rating they were sailing off. It has actually taken me some great pains to get the F16's out of the slow (H16 etc) fleet and into the big fleet. The RC was amazed that I wanted the F16 to sail of 102 which is the F18 handicap. We got it, thanks to the RC trusting me on my word (they were some old buddies of mine). So the F16 sailors replied on the water that thet sailed of the F18 rating of 102. This showed immediately some relieve on the faces of the other crews.

Actually there is another funny twist to the story and that is that several boats never completed their 3 laps as they never beleived that they could be lapped by an F16 in some 40 minutes of sailing. There were a few instances where other crews followed Daniel van Kerckhof and Anna-liese Byrne over the finishline only to find that they were open to be disqualified afetrward for not finishing the course. Daniel and Anna-liese however did not press these issues with the RC as they had won their fleet anyway with or without the DSQ's of the other crews. Of course Daniel and Anna-liese are a very capable crew and should be regarded as extremely talented sailors. That must be said, however lapping other boats in 40 minutes of sailing is quite a feature.

Similar stories can be had about the Spitfire and similar stories are known about singlehanded F16's.

Point of the story ; Underestimate these short-hulled boats at your own peril. Some **** A-cat sailors already did and gave us some great enjoyement.


Wouter

I've sailed them and in force 4 to 6 winds, the 17 foot singlehanders are not really competitive with regard to doublehanders as well. Is not so much a design problem but more an issue of not havign enough hands or KG's on the wire.

Wouter

Simon says, 16 feet cats are just bad with the amount of sail they carry for a solo sailor. Not bad in general, I have heard of a 16 feet cat that has apparently been sold 150000 times... Cant think of the name right now...

Wouter,

I have to disagree with your comments with regard to the Spitfire as a SINGLE HANDER above. most of your examples were quoting 2 handed F16's which I agree with, they are great boats. I myself have sailed a Spitfire in around F2-F6 and they are very fast and great fun.



You comments above to carry some truth, all Single handed boats with kites will always struggle when it gets very windy as we (I) do run out of hands. Having said that, we do get out day some times, I was out today in winds varing from about F2 to top F5 and had a 38th (and a swim) and a First place (when blowing F5). This was in our club championship and I was up against national and european champions in cat and monohulls.



I did no such thing, I said I thought 16 foot was a little short for carring that much sail single handed. I know Reg and Rob White (they made me a hurricane once )



How many of those F16's were single handed ?



Grow up

I never said a 16 foot boat was bad, just a little short with a Spitfire mainsail single handed



Another 2 up example

Wouter, you have your opinion about the F16 scene which I mostly agree with. You have taken exception to my comments with regard to the spitfire singlehanded. I was not planning to start a war (which it looks like I have), F16's are great boats, I have sailed one (a spitfire as I say above)

I am not 'having a go at F16'

Now back on topic does anyone have any solid facts on the Nacra F17 ?

Scooby wrote:

"The Spotfire is also 'only' 16 feet - whick is a bit shor for carrying that much sail on your own. "

Simon,

To summerize I think we agree in general and that my post transformed itself as a reply to multiple person while it was being written. The majority of it certain didn't refer to you.

The part directed at your posting is that 14.85 - 15.4 sq. mtr. and 5,00 mtr long hulls (16 and 4/10's feet) has now been proven to be a working combo in two designs already. Therefor stating that the Spitfire sailarea of 15.4 mtr. is two much for a 16 foot hull is not selfevident anymore. The other parts are delayed reactions to other comments )of other people) over time.

Just like FX-one poster wrote the H16 has 15.5 sq.mtr. main on 5 mtr hulls and is a popular and well respect boat by a large group of sailors. I can compare these two designs H16 and F16 (where F16 has less sailarea !) and there is a huge seperation between the two. This once more underlines that the combo 15 sq. mtr. main + 16 foot hulls is not a very telling one. Moreso I can compare these with the 17 foot singlehanders as well and I can assure everybody that one can't not even order behaviour properly when looking at sailarea and hull length. Such an order would completely miz up 16 and 17 foot hulled boats and not show a meaningful correlation between behaviour and hull length.

I do very much admit however that other design feature make or break the overall design. Indeed one can not put a 8.5 + mtr mast with 15+ sq. mtr sail on any platform and end up with a well behaving boat. That much is certainly true. If the reverse were true than were would the 9.15 mtr mast and 16.4 sq mtr main combo on the 17 foot Nacra F17 end up on the list ?


>>>>>I understand it is very tempting to write off independent boat designs like the Spitfire or the Taipan using some soundbites.


>>I did no such thing, I said I thought 16 foot was a little short for carring that much sail single handed. I know Reg and Rob White (they made me a hurricane once )


Indeed and I replied that simply looking at the hull-length and sailarea can be very deceiving and that counterexamples have already proven to work well with the stated combo. Now I personally don't know the Spitfire well enough to make an specific claims about it but I do know that carrying the same area on the same length hull of the Taipan is not a problem on the Taipan. In fact I found the same area on the same length mast on a specific 17 foot singlehander to be a worse combo. I put it down to the 2 points I named in my other post.

Simon, did you own the Hurrican 500 ?


>>How many of those F16's were single handed ?

None, but how do you square "sailarea on 16 foot hulls is okay for doublehanding but less sailarea (no jib) on the same platform is not okay when singlehanding" ?

Afterall by dropping the jib one drop sailarea and thus power. By having less kg on the wire you drop sailforce again. All while the bouyancy in he bows (for example) stay the same. I can understand when sheet loads can get to high or something but why would the sam 16 foot platform be to small for a singlehanded sailing but not for doublehanded sailing ?


>>Grow up

Well, hey, the statement in itself suggested that it was partly over the top in order to be funny.


>>I never said a 16 foot boat was bad, just a little short with a Spitfire mainsail single handed

Okay you sailed it singlehandedly I assume. So please tell us what happened when sailed like this. What issues highligted that its 16 foot and mainsail made it unsuited for singlehanding ?


>>Another 2 up example

Not entirely as the report about the questions considering the ratings ones happened also between a singlehanded FX-one and a single handed F16. Similar things between the doublehanded (and jibbed) FX-one and a doublehanded F16. There was some interacting between the crews on the water. When waiting for the start area to clear I assume.


>>>Wouter, you have your opinion about the F16 scene which I mostly agree with. You have taken exception to my comments with regard to the spitfire singlehanded. I was not planning to start a war (which it looks like I have), F16's are great boats, I have sailed one (a spitfire as I say above) I am not 'having a go at F16'


I know, That part of the post was not directed at you but more at the larger "common wisdom" that seems to skew things. You are not to blame in any way for this "common wisdom". I used the F16's as teh are a great counterexample to your argument that teh sailarea and hull length in themselfs tell alot of can be expected of a boat. I have personal experience that this does not have to be the case. Like I said I expected my own boat to be more nervous and sensitive when I build her but she is simply to opposite. This I extended to the greater audience by railing (?) against the phenomenon that independent baots always are subjected to these wisdoms while mainstream boats never are. I mean look at the specs of the I-17 R or now F17 I have yet to hear anybody claim that that mast sailcombo is to much for 17 foot. Things like that, but again these are directed to a greater audience and not to you specifically although you did write down one of these wisdoms in your post.


>>Now back on topic does anyone have any solid facts on the Nacra F17 ?

If you get them can you send me a copy. I would love to find out these as well.

With kind regards,

Wouter

No I had 2 Hurricane 5.9's over a period of about 10 years - fantastic boats

I have sailed a 500 and it is/was an interesting boat. Very quick at times, but had a bit of a bite to it down wind.



No again, we were 2 up - fantastic boat, but I still believe it would be a bit too much single handed with the kite up...



If I get anything, I will post it here.

Will this spin work on a 5.2 for a 255#sailor? Some adjustment to the rigging?