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iF20 vs. NA-F20 #3755
11/12/01 06:04 PM
11/12/01 06:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline OP
member
Barry  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Which way to go? The Euro rules were drafted around the I20 in Europe. Why not do the same here? What are the advantages of starting a NA-F20? What are the advantages of following the Euro rules?
<br>I don't believe there are any boats in the US that are legal for Euro F20. The Fox is the closest if it doesn't use the snuffer setup.
<br>After speaking to all of my local sailors I feel that the only way the Formula class will get off the ground will be to conform the rules to the 200 Inter 20s in the US. I am personally willing to reduce my sail area but all but one of the sailors I talked to is unwilling to change.
<br><br><br>

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Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: Barry] #3756
11/13/01 09:42 AM
11/13/01 09:42 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
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Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Hey Barry,
<br>
<br>I hate to say it but I agree with you on this one. I don't think this class has a chance at getting off the ground unless we allow the current I20 sailors to sail their current configurations. The thing that I don't know is, are the current I20 sailors interested in this F20 class? If we start this up I have the feeling they will think it's great until they get beat by somebodies backyard invention. Then they'll go back and say "We're going to race One-Design". I think I would like to see some interest in this class by the I-20 sailors since they would be the basis for the class. A list of I-20 sailors that sign-on would be best. Possibly you, Barry, could help come up with names and emails. In fact if they see this post I can start keeping a list on my computer if they just send an email to me at mhill2@swbell.net.
<br>
<br>I know Carl, Teets, Barry, ... who else is out there?
<br>
<br>Mike Hill
<br>H20 #791
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
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Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: -list [Re: Mike Hill] #3757
11/13/01 10:55 AM
11/13/01 10:55 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
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sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Mike
<br>
<br>-Will send you my e mail add ---
<br>-crdesignr@earthlink.net
<br> also-
<br>
<br> Steve -posting the weight idea -is building a web site and said he would organize an e-mail group for direct communication ,-also has an existing 20 sailors group he mentioned .
<br> The F-18 group also just getting started is remaining annon.untill they finalize and publish N A 18 rules and have their web site and proposed included races scheduled .
<br>
<br>-Hopefully we will take our time , gather all the information and have 20 sailors as part of the group from all geographic locations around the country .
<br>
<br>
<br>-Will try to list all critisms and potential problems in forming this class and proposed potential solutions in rules formation to them .
<br>-Have been trying to gather and list basic info for handy reference purposes--various 20 boat specs ,--links to ISAF and TEXEL rating systems ,-F-16 INFO --design info and basic formula and their effect on speed potential and ratings,-which we need more of - , and also to walk through sail area meas. process, as you have ,-and ISAF and Texel calc ,on all various boat types and rating effects of variations on weight -sail area ,etc.-
<br>
<br>-Hope we get recommendations and involvement from Sail makers ,boat builders , boat designers ,and numerous sailors interested.
<br>
<br> Carl
<br> <br><br>

Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: Mike Hill] #3758
11/13/01 10:58 AM
11/13/01 10:58 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline OP
member
Barry  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Mike
<br>I have talked to all of the I20 sailors in New England and upstate NY. They are all up for the F20 class if their current sail plan is class legal. I have also talked to a group of H20 sailors and a M6.0 sailor. They currently don't have a local one-design class (locally) and are willing to join the F20 class. Most of the N6.0 class is uninterested at this time as they have a big one-design class now.
<br>Why is everyone worried about the I20 killing everyone? I like the layout and the feel of the boat but the hull design isn’t the best. The other boats that would easily fit the F20 rules are going to be as fast. The Tornado cut down to 8-6 will be very fast. Look at the cost of a new F20 boat. I would even change boats if the F20 class gets off the ground. There is an older Tornado platform for sail for cheap ($1600) around here. I could build a rig including the carbon mast for under $6000. Bring the minimum weight up to what ever the rules say. Do I think it will be fast? Yes
<br>I think a F20ed Hobie 20 can beat a Fox. I have sailed both boats.
<br>
<br>In New England the I20 class decided to race under the F20 class as of last July. We invited all of the 6.0’s and Foxes to race against us. We plan to keep the class open to other boats in the future. We could run a North East NA-F20 Championship next year if we can get some rules in place.
<br>I will send you a list personally of the sailors.
<br><br><br>

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Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: Barry] #3759
11/13/01 02:04 PM
11/13/01 02:04 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
Mike Hill Offline
old hand
Mike Hill  Offline
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 833
St. Louis, MO,
If I took my H20 and bought an I20 rig (2200), sails (2300) and boards(500) for about $5000 I could probably compete against the I20. I think I would just buy an I-20 instead. I've competed against I-20's straight up in Michigan. They walk away from me upwind. I would say they are 2 minutes ahead of me by the windward mark.
<br>
<br>The I-20 boat is perfect for flat water and 10-15mph of wind.
<br>
<br>I am personally not interested in racing my H20 against I-20's straight up. I'm not even that interested in a Portsmouth race against I-20's. However I think there is great merit in creating an association with F20 and F18 rules for North America. This will create an atmosphere where the builders can build boats to compete with these rules. I mean home builders or Hobie, Performance, Stealth, Marstrom, Boyer, ... can all compete on a level playing field for the same group of customers. <br><br>

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3813- (196 downloads)

Mike Hill
N20 #1005
Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: Barry] #3760
11/13/01 02:11 PM
11/13/01 02:11 PM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline
member
majsteve  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Barry,
<br>
<br>Thanks for the update on scene in New England. You are having the same basis thoughts that I have had regarding the F20 scenarios. Most people look at what it costs them. Instead of looking at the potentials of what it brings to the sport.
<br>
<br>Part of what I have been thinking and to a point trying to say is that making boat weight minimums is not really a good idea. For alot of reasons but mostly, open rules brings new thoughts about how to "skin the cat". Your comments about the Tornado is just one side of it. Most of us have nightmares about "what if someone went out an built a $50K boat and kicked all our butts" Well, basically that was done with the CFR20 and it really did not go anywhere because of costs. Most people have no problem nickle and dimeing this addiction we all call cat sailing. Very few are going to cut a huge check and go forward. If we keep that in mind than everything else is simple.
<br>
<br>I am trying to compile an email file with all parties interested in the NA F20 assoc. but, work is piling up oin both fronts. I think that I'll have it about the same time that the website is up in some formula.
<br>
<br>If any of you want to give me some insight on how to make this thing grow or want to start building a following in your area please do --- I need the help!!!!!
<br>
<br>Thanks
<br>Steve<br><br>

Attached Files
3814- (184 downloads)
Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: majsteve] #3761
11/14/01 09:18 AM
11/14/01 09:18 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Matt M Offline
addict
Matt M  Offline
addict

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 548
MERRITTISLAND, FL
Steve,
<br>
<br>Your fear of a 50K boat comming out is unjustified. While with any formula or developmental rule it is possible, it is unlikely to anything beyond a minor improvement in performance because of the physics of the limits that do get placed on the class. (lenght, beam, SA, etc) The ONLY way around that is one design (NOT THE GOAL HERE). Look at the CFR it was expensive, could not be produced, and got its butt kicked when the wind blew more than 5 knots. I dont see that as much of a threat in the long run, unless you have the cash and desire to have a boat for every condition.
<br>
<br>Matt<br><br>

Attached Files
3841- (186 downloads)
And in the last case you require one boat per .... [Re: Matt M] #3762
11/14/01 10:09 AM
11/14/01 10:09 AM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
Wouter Offline
Carpal Tunnel
Wouter  Offline
Carpal Tunnel

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 9,582
North-West Europe
And in the last case you require one boat per regatta (weekend) or championship. This effectively makes this 50 k boats very bad investments and very effective money wasters.
<br>
<br>Guys, these big bucks attackts are easily fended off by simple additions to regatta rules 9not design rules)
<br>
<br>Example, the rule that only one set of sails is allowed for the regatta. No-one now risks super light and fragile sails (genakers) anymore.
<br>
<br>Wouter<br><br>

Attached Files
3846- (180 downloads)

Wouter Hijink
Formula 16 NED 243 (one-off; homebuild)
The Netherlands
Re: iF20 vs. NA-F20 [Re: Matt M] #3763
11/14/01 10:12 AM
11/14/01 10:12 AM
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
majsteve Offline
member
majsteve  Offline
member

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 195
Texas
Matt
<br>
<br>I think you came in alittle late in the conversation. But, you did say exactly what my point was.
<br>
<br>Thanks
<br>Steve<br><br>

Attached Files
3847- (190 downloads)
Re: . NA-F20 [Re: Barry] #3764
11/14/01 12:17 PM
11/14/01 12:17 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
sail6000 Offline
old hand
sail6000  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 800
MI
Hi Barry -
<br> Can you post the E Coast N-6/0 SPECS --chute size --pole length --jib size ,--standard main ? --and mast weight --
<br> good reference along with other basic boat specs .
<br>
<br> thanks -
<br> Carl<br><br>

Attached Files
3853- (188 downloads)
N 6.0 specs [Re: sail6000] #3765
11/14/01 12:42 PM
11/14/01 12:42 PM

A
Anonymous
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Anonymous
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The "Class"chute we are using is 348 ft^2. It is sailed with a 14 ft pole either tramp launched or with snuffer and modified Pole.
<br>Eric <br><br>

Re: . NA-F20 [Re: sail6000] #3766
11/14/01 01:31 PM
11/14/01 01:31 PM
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Barry Offline OP
member
Barry  Offline OP
member

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 180
Chelmsford, MA
Chute size 380sqft.
<br>Pole length 14ft total w/ or without sunffer
<br>Main and Jib a stock
<br>Mast is stock and weighs about 61#
<br>The 6.0 with this setup, on average, is the same speed as a I20.
<br>
<br><br><br>

Attached Files
3858- (183 downloads)

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