Dave, Good Post.

I just noticed the title of your reply "Newsflash: Lk. Hartwell Not Center of Universe!" and the last line of the reply quoted above and realized that you totally missed the whole point of my post. In no way am I trying to say that Lake Hartwell, Spring Fever, or the SouthEast F18 sailors should be considered above and beyond what is happening elsewhere. When I pointed out the growth of F18 in the southeast, complete with examples, I meant to imply that this kind of growth should be an important consideration to a manufacturer and a manufacturer supported organization (like NAHCA). Hell, I'm trying to show an area ripe for improvement in which you guys can sell more boats! I would like nothing more than to see F18 continue to grow strongly...including Tigers.

I realize the Hobie Tiger 'one-design' and F18 support is a raw topic currently - yes, I've got my rather strong opinions regarding it. But what I am trying to point out here is that we need to look at how we can better communicate scheduling to avoid these kind of overlaps to the advantage of all. I don't know if the F18 decision makers knew of the date and location of the Tiger Worlds when they decided on the S.E. F18 Championship dates and location but I imagine that if they had, it would have factored into the decision. Maybe I'm being presumptious again but a great turnout of F18 boats at a large F18 event a good thing for Hobie too (especially since they are the predominant boat) - right?

Dave’s post certainly does drive home the difficulty that the Hobie Class Association has with the Hobie Tiger and fitting it into it’s organization comfortably. It may be better to characterize this as Tiger Class Racing rather than Tiger One-Design racing.

You would likely be interested to know that the Hobie Class Association is working hard to resolve the issue of Tigers One Design / F18 rules. It has been a difficult balance thus far.

Hobie Tiger Rules Discussion

I would say most are leaning towards making the Tiger rules follow more closely with F18, but with some tighter controls over how often changes can be made. One current example of the F18 rule problems are the new STX sails used at the F18 Worlds this year. Most Tiger teams will not have had a chance to use them before the Tiger Worlds next spring… so they will likely not be permitted. That decision is not official, but it is the only one that would likely be fair to all teams. If strict F18 rules were in place, those sails would be legal. Recent Tiger buyers would have to buy yet another sail to compete at the Worlds and some will not have sailed their existing sails much let alone the new ones. This is what we call the “arms race”. This is something that the Hobie Class has always tried to avoid. It actually turns off many sailors… certainly the ones with less than large sailing budgets.

I know some people think there shouldn’t even be Tiger-Only racing…maybe there should only be F18 racing. Closed Class events or manufacturer events are COMPLETELY the norm in sailing (let alone just about any other activity you can think of). Hobie Tiger racing is strong World Wide… and a strong Hobie Tiger Class is good for F18 racing… not bad.

I read the post and the postings at the link and I can't help noticing some weird twists in the reasoning.

-1- It appears that some sailors invent some movement of "goal posts" in order to give more weight to their (emotional) opinion. This is not very convincing guys !

-2- Then there seems to be the pfenomemon of inventing problems and then attributing it too the F18 class. I gives as example "One current example of the F18 rule problems are the new STX sails used at the F18 Worlds this year". This is simply not a problem under F18 rules. The problem only arises in the Hobie tiger class where earlier limits have forced everybody to pre-STX sails. This is classic example of a rule that gives rise to problems rather then solving them. Please read on to point 3

-3- There also seems to be the believe that strict rules on sail design make racing more fair. How many times has this been disproven in ohhh A-cat class, Tornado class, F18 class and a host of other classes. It seems that rather having such strict rules leads to unfairness; it has a build in unfairness when a decision is made to allow a new design to replace the (enforced) outdated design. If the class had allowed the sail to gradually improve with each year their wouldn't be such a sharp inequality, only small ones. Which of the two is more fair ?

-4- There also seem to be a believe that having a NEW sail design is magical. How many times I've seen the better crew with standard sails win is beyond counting. Top of the line gear helps but only for about 1 % overall. The other 99 % is still very much sailor related. Afterall, who were sailing with the special new cloth at the olympics ? and did these 3 crews end up in the final results. What was the Olympic champion using ? I rest my case. Ohh one more thing we saw the very same thing the the past ICCT.

-5- Then I notes a persistant, yet unfounded, habit to call any allowance for freedom an arms race and suggest that this "actually turns off many sailors". Mr Miller I'm not sure if you have noticed by the F18 worlds have no attracted about 150 boats and 300 crews (cut-oof limits) for several years in a row now and thus well in excess of the Tiger worlds. If such an F18 arms race is turns many sailors off then by God where do these 150 crews come from and those uncounted crews that were turned away failing to qualify. F18 is THEY succes story in catamaran racing since the Hobie 16's and now some tigers want us to believe that F18 is on its last legs due to "the arms race?"

-6- Then some more fairytail claims : "Closed Class events or manufacturer events are COMPLETELY the norm in sailing". Humm last time I check the catamaran scene was dominated by : Tornado (Open class event with open rules concerning sails), F18 (rest my case) , A-cats (an open class if there ever was one) and Hobie 16's (The only closed manufacture class of significance that is left).Then "let alone just about any other activity you can think of" Nascar = Open, Formula 1 = Open; Tennis = Open ; Golf = Open, Horse riding = open, Rowing = open; Skiing = open and so on and so on.

-7- "Hobie Tiger racing is strong World Wide… and a strong Hobie Tiger Class is good for F18 racing… not bad."
I think we discussed this claim before. Please forgive me when I give the latest installment.

2004 Dutch Championship Hobie : 22 H16's, 7 tigers (no big names what so ever), 2 FX-ones and that was it. (source : http://www.hobiehotnews.nl/uitslagen_nk_scheveningen.html )

And lets not forget to mention that 5 out of these 7 tigers WERE NOT TIGER OD COMPLIANT but rather were the F18 versions. The champion of the OD tiger class (only 2 boats) was determined with both boats scoring a DNC's in races 4 and 5. Only 3 out of 7 boat completed all of the 5 races


To pick just a fun distance race held around the same time : REM race 2004 => 17 tigers (with several big names) among 34 F18's. I'm sure the French and German Tigers do a little better but not by that much. The more this is looking like the mouse saying to elephant :"some loud noice we make, don't we ?". I know things are looking more impressive for you in US and AUS but even there F18 events are at least comparable in size if not larger. I maybe a big thing to accept but the F18 class couldn't care less what the Tiger class does or doesn't do. The impact on the F18 is neglectable no way how you look at it. Sure a good Tiger following could be good for the F18 class but this does not imply that a bad Tiger following is also bad for the F18 class. In some area's the one sidedness of this relationship is proven year after year.

I really don't understand the Tiger class. All your problems are of your own making; if you guys had just kept the Tiger as an F18 and organised for some Single manufacturer races than all these problems would never have existed. And if the arms race turns you off (unlike many others) than the Tiger design is simply not your thing. Stay with the Hobie 20, 18 or even Hobie 16. Don't give customers a false picture of what they can expect. F18 and strictly controlled Tiger OD racing using the same boat are an illusion. And as a matter of fact it was never anything different.

One more positive comment to Tiger sailors. Just sail your stock Tiger as good as you can and you may be surprised how competitive you can be. Get your head out of the boat, sail cleanly and forget about OD BS and scare tactics like arms races. On a spinnaker boat, skill and many hour of practice are more then ever the paths to high placings. Setting your kite 1 sec later than the competition and you will have dropped 10 mtrs back. This is often enough to let 1 or 2 boats pass you. 1 % extra boat speed is not going to make much difference if you consistantly need 1-3 seconds more per tack/gibe or hoist/drop.

Wouter

Matt Miller

I did not mean to pick on the Tiger only. I think the Nacra has also changed a lot on their boat also. The Tiger came over from Europe and things are a lot different over there and just starting to catch on over here in the states. I realize that the manufacturers want to have the fastest boat so they make changes on them a lot to stay competitive. I think changes also help sell boats and new parts. Here in the southeast a lot of us bought new F18's several years ago and are now selling them to other sailors in the area who could not afford new boats but want an F18. and then buying new boats building the fleet. It is hard to have different rules for the same boat. If you go to a F18 event and are under weight you need the small jib and spin (means buying more sails). Some have changed other things like tapered sheets, home-made snuffer, jib downhaul, etc., that don't fit both sets of rules and would need to be changed depending on the event. I am lucky because here in the southeast we mainly race F18. I hope we can all work together to build a great F18 class.

I did not think the STX sail had passed and become HCA approved yet. If it does pass it will only hurt the HCA class racing.

Tiger Class Racing is a bit of a joke. Proven by the fact that my 04 Tiger is already been changed and will be changed more in the near future. Does that mean I am not going to race when there are 10-15 boats racing near me, no, does that mean that I will not go to Santa Barbara for the Tiger Worlds,no, but I will show up and talk F18 up and try to enlighten the sailors that it is the way to go. It seems that North America is the only place that there is even a problem with this. Already our largest fleets are F18 and with luck and promotion all will be.

Save the One design label for the Hobie 16 and let the Tigers go F18.

On Spring Fever, It is an OK regatta, A GREAT PARTY, and all should try to get there at least once. THANK YOU NIGEL!!!

On NACRA F18 Nationals & Worlds, COME ON, we have all seen how that is going to play out. 4 boats at Tybee. This is some mythical event dreamed up so certain parties could say to someone (Tiger owners) you can't come here.

You have to face the fact that there is a Tiger class. (why it survives I don't understand. good marketing?) And it will draw a decent # of boats to certain events. There are also very few sailors that embrace the Tiger Class concept over F18 (IMHO)

Flame On!!

Tom

Tom,

First of all, NACRA offered to make their North Americans the North American F18 Championships for 2005, but with the proposal from Virginia Beach, withdrew the offer. The withdrawal was from the event organizer, not NACRA (Why bring the NAF18 North Americans to Traverse City again when Virginia wants to host the event?). NACRA invited NAF18 to their North Americans in 2002 (Traverse City) and 2003 (Pensacola Beach). I'm pretty sure you attended the 2003 NAF18 North Americans at NACRA's PRW in 2003. I don't recall ever getting an invitation from Hobie to host the NAF18 North Americans as part of their Continentals. I'm not holding my breath, but I am not flaming Hobie for not offering. I think NACRA should be applauded for being open to hosting NAF18 North Americans as part of their North American Championships. Don't even THINK that NACRA isn't embracing and inviting the F18s to its events...it has consistently supported NAF18. This has not been the case of any other manufacturer to date (other than a few hundred dollars in advertising). To accuse NACRA of excluding Tigers is wrong. NACRA's actions prove otherwise.

BTW, don't think that F18 attendance at PRW at Tybee is any indication of what will happen at Traverse City. Already, 16 NACRA F18s have indicated they will be at PRW in Traverse City in September 2005! This does not include any of the Australian teams and only one of the European teams. Both Europe and Australia have indicated they would bring a large group to the World Championships for the NACRA F18 in Traverse City next fall.

"I don't know if the F18 decision makers knew of the date and location of the Tiger Worlds when they decided on the S.E. F18 Championship dates and location but I imagine that if they had, it would have factored into the decision. "

Jake, to answer that question, it was known.
At least *I* knew.
I honestly did not expect people to get so touchy over it. But know I see that it *is* an issue.

SO,there is a fix for those of you wanting to attend both events. It can be changed -
If another club is interested in submitting a bid to host the Southern Area champs please do so as soon as possible.

Of course you realize that the handful of people here discussing this issue are only a few people in the cat sailing racing/community. There are many many more out there who do not even look at this forum who can not chime in and state their opinion on the scheduling.
Which makes me in turn wonder why a change at all should even be considered because of this thread.

But I want to say something else, WHY on earth would anyone pick on another group for taking on the tremendous responsibility and commitment of organizing and running a National, Continental, Regional or World event?

Please be happy that there are still people willing to take on such a effort. It has to start some where or it won't go any where.

Schedules are not going to perfect and they are not going to accommodate every one.

Tracie

I already posted this on that other thread about scheduling conflicts, but it may be more relevant on this thread:

First of all, it is not often that we have a World Championship in the United States, and when we do have one, I think everyone who has one of those boats (or can charter one) should be there. Nobody should have to think twice about whether they want to go to Spring Fever or to a Worlds. To me it is a no-brainer. Whether you sail a Tiger as a one-design or as an F18, you will get a major education by going to a World Championship. If we had a Tiger (and if we were a little younger), we would have already reserved a spot on that truck to take it to California. A Worlds is worth spending your whole regatta budget for the year. A regatta like Spring Fever is a lot of fun, but it is probably not going to do much to improve your racing skills, because you are sailing against the same people you ALWAYS sail against.

I'll bet even Nigel would like to be at that Tiger Worlds.

Another reason is that when we hold a World Championship here, we should show our support and enthusiasm by getting every live Tiger there. If people are coming from Europe and all over the world, certainly the U.S. boats and sailors can get there.

Second of all: Maybe some agency within US Sailing (the Multihull Council in the case of the beach cats) could have a rule like what ISAF has. ISAF requires that World Championships or other ISAF events submit their dates to ISAF by August 1st of the year preceding the event. (Unfortunately, they do not appear on the ISAF calendar until the actual year of the event.)

In the case of the United States, if major one-design championships (Nationals, North Americans, Midwinters, etc.) and also major multiple-class regattas like Madcatter and Spring Fever and Tradewinds, plus World and International events, could all be on a calendar by, for instance, August 1 of 2004, (and if those dates could be published during August), then all the other regattas could take that into consideration when planning their more local events for 2005. Most of the local and regional schedules are planned during the fall of the preceding year, so this would give them ample advance notice.

By announcing the major-event schedule in August, this gives the major-event organizers time to see whether there are any conflicts in scheduling of the big events so that adjustments can be made if necessary, before all the other schedules are established.

But I think scheduling conflicts are something that should be worked out by the affected event organizers and not mediated by some third party.

There are a small number of "major" beach-cat events, and most of those are already locked in on traditional dates, so it should be fairly easy to have a calendar of the following year's major events published in August of the preceding year.

When a specific class is planning to hold a World Championship in the United States, the organizers should try to plan their event dates so there is not a conflict with another of the "usual," prescheduled big events in the United States.

If the Tiger World Championship has been in the planning stages for three years, they should have been aware that there might be a scheduling conflict with Spring Fever, which attracts a lot of Tigers/F18s. HOWEVER, it is too late now to change the date for the Worlds, so it is up to Spring Fever, if they think it would be in their best interests to change their date.

Tracie,
You might consider the Tradewinds.., good wind, flat seas. And it is definitely south.
Rick

Les,

I want to point out some distinctions while reading all these posts regarding Hobie, NACRA and F18. Correct me if I'm wrong but PRW is NACRA's Nationals/North Americans. To me that means NACRA/INTER/PRINDLE (anything manufactured by Performance Catamarans) ONLY. No one with a Hobie or any other non-Performance boat in their right mind would show up. You would be turned away. The title of NACRA F18 Championship means NACRA F18's only, whether it's a Nationals or Worlds. But as soon as you invite or say anything about including F18 (generic) or NAF-18...you open the door to ALL F18's. This is what happened at PRW in 2003 but not in 2004. I think NACRA did that only as a response to the HCA's Hobie-only edict. That's another thread on this forum. I feel event organizers must be crystal clear in who they are inviting to sail. F18 or NAF18 to me means open to all F18's. Anything with a NACRA F18 title is NACRA only just like the Tiger "class" in Hobie only events. I agree with Tom about the Tiger "class". There is so much variation between Tigers that the definition of a "true" one design is in question. But as Wouter stated...get your head out of the boat and just sail it. You'd be surprised on how competitive you'd be. Mary is right on regarding the Worlds experience. If you are a Tiger owner...you'd be crazy not to take advantage of this "local" opportunity. For more info regarding the 2005 Tiger Worlds, check out www.hobieworlds.com.

John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Detroit, MI

I can think of two reasons.

Not enough money to attend an event on the other side of the map. (travel, hotel)
not enough time to attend the event. If you have to drive you'll need to plan for more days off, etc.

For us, Spring Fever is closer. You can camp, but we stay with people.

Believe me, I would love to participate in a World event. But there are circumstances that will hinder people from going. Are we going to sit at home that weekend because we can't go to the Worlds? No, we'll go to Spring Fever.

Tracie

Sorry. I was talking about people who have a choice and are trying to decide which event to go to. If you don't have a choice, that makes it easy.

I just think that everybody who CAN go, SHOULD try to go.

John,

You are absolutely correct, PRW is NACRA's North American Championships. In 2002, NACRA specifically invited the North American F18 Class Association to conduct the NAF18 North American Championships at Performance Race Week, and did so again in 2003. They had no need to invite the NAF18 Class to PRW 2004 because the NAF18 North American Championships were already held in Quebec in July. HCA's Hobie-only policy had nothing to do with it. NACRA was helping the NAF18 Class Association by hosting their North American Championships when it was apparent that the class needed someone to host the NA's. That is no longer the case.

It is interesting about your and Tom's comment about variation in Tigers and trying to stay up to date with the IF18 Class and be "one design" at the same time. I think that NACRA's approach to their NACRA F18 Class rules might be the correct approach, that from the beginning they have said they would follow the IF18 Rules and the boat would continue to be developed within the IF18 rules. Owners and potential owners were asked their view of this approach and were overwhelmingly in favor of the "Formula Rule" approach rather than "one design". The evolutionary changes are expected and most feel this is good for the class. Again, you are correct (as is Wouter) that the most improvement in performance will come from sailing the boat to it's potential, not in increased potential due to design changes within the Formula Rule.

Again, I think you are correct in advising people to compete in World Championships when possible, and anyone who passes up a chance to compete in the NACRA F18 World Championships in Traverse City, Michigan next September would be foolish.

Tom
what happened to all the F18 sailors in your area when NJ hosted the F18 challenge on Labor day. It was in in back yard at a great club. There were more boats from division 9 than from the area. It was a 12 hour drive for us each way. You guys sure missed a great Regatta. You can read about it in this months NAF18 newsletter.

Dave - two words why you didn't get the upstate NY crowd at the Labor Day event:

The Outing

I'll let Tom explain exactly what that is.

Hey Dave,

We have this get toghether on Labor Day weekend where we rent a beach, bring 6 kegs, 500 clams, music, grills and sail/party with our friends and families. After a season of racing every weekend it is a great wind down. Not to mention that our club hosted the 2004 H16 Continentals the week immediately afterward.

Personally I thought another major event over a holiday weekend was not a good idea, but just MHO.

Les

The variations are relatively minor, only material if you take the sum total of them over many years. I agre with Wouter that there is much more to be gainrd by learning to sail the boat correctly, i.e. tacks, gybes, starts, etc.

Perf Cats was on the right track in 03 when they allowed the full F18 class to participate. For I while I thought they were taking the high road, but eventually a few jaded people had to turn it into "it's my yard stay out!" It looked like they were going to be leaders but they to dropped the ball. As you may recall Doug Skidmore from Hobie showed up to that event.....I was in the middle of that and actually saw what transpired.

On 16 NACRA F18's at that Worlds-most of those will be local boats that never leave their area. In the 2.5 years I have been involved with F18 the only consistent traveller have been Matt S, the Batchelor boys and Mark Kennedy. There is nothing wrong with staying home, I am feeling more like that all the time, but how many boats from outside MI will really show? I find I want less to go to places that don't reciprocate and tdavel to my events. huh?

Not meant to start arguments just musings from someone frustrated with manufacturers and Class Assoc.

Discourse is heathy, EVEN if we don't agree!

I'll still buy you a beer when I see you all

This is in response to Mr. Lennard's questions regarding which Tiger did Matt get. Here are some points to consider regarding the Tiger one design definition.

Hull seams...who cares? It's personal preference whether YOU remove them or not. The factory is removing them now. One less thing to do.

Trampoline design...who cares? It does not aid or hinder performance. The loose tramp on top design is easier to manufacture. The tramp in hull is more asthetic.

Spreaders...who cares? The newer design makes it easier to adjust the rake. It does not aid or hinder performance.

Snuffers? You can have any type (homemade or factory) snuffer system as long as there is NO carbon in it. Again it is personal preference.

Foils...again it's personal preference. The design has not changed...only the materials. Besides the carbon ones are Gucci.

Self Tacker/Jib...who cares? That is a convienence item for the crew. It does not aid or hinder performance.

Spinnaker rings/grommets...personal preference detail again. It depends on YOUR choice of snuffer system.

Spinnaker luff line...that is again a personal preference detail.

Booms and Beams...who cares? It does not aid or hinder performance.

What matters? It's about SAME hull design (a Tiger hull is NOT the same design as a NACRA hull), SAME sail plan (there are design/construction differences between Hobie and NACRA...but the overall square footage is the same), SAME design foils (Hobie's are different than NACRA's) and SAME minimum boat weight (396 lbs). Those parameters keep the one design playing field level. In this context the Tiger (or NACRA) is one design. A lot of these extras, add-ons and changes are things that owners can do to trick-out their boat. It's all about personal preference. Tigers and NACRA's are different, but they both conform to the F18 box rule. That is the beauty of it all. Whether you sail one design or F18, it's boat for boat, head to head competition with NO corrected time. My Tiger is a few years old but it is just as competitive as the newer ones. May the BEST crew win!

John Bauldry
Hobie Tiger 1317
Commodore, Hobie Fleet 276
Detroit, MI

John,

I agree with everything you said and wouldn't mind racing in the same atmosphere. However, you're moving farther away from 'one-design' and have made some sort of compromise that lies between true one-design and box rule. If it works for the Tiger class, that's fine, but just because the hull and board shape is the same, by definition, this does not make it a one-design class. By the time we've made all these compromises, why not simply adopt the F18 rule and apply it to the one-manufacturer class?

I think the ultimate solution (it was said above) is for each manufacturer of an F18 to commit to the fact that they are producing an F18 and let F18 rules apply. If the boat owners support it, have your own nationals or worlds but keep things simple by allowing all your customers (in this case, Tiger owners) to compete by aligning the measurement and rules with F18. This is such a simpler way to go.

I for one, would like to see all manufacturer nationals to be opened up to any F18 - They're building it for that purpose right? Why all the confusion? Showcase your product! Just look at the example Europe has provided - F18 is rockin!

The only argument that I've heard against going true box-rule F18 for individual manufacturer classes is that the sailors don't want an 'arms race'....has anyone seen that yet? Ever argument pro or con above indicates there's no significant competitive disadvantage to all the changes - so why resist the already existing rules?

Jake very well said and I agree.

John
I just don't think you should call it one design. What happens if the new STX sail is passed? Yes all the changes can be over come buy being a better sailor but when you get to the top level it does. Do you think the Sailors in the Olympics had old sails or old designs?

Tom
I wondered what happened to you guys.